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German Brewing The German Brewing Forum Welcomes You 2016-05-06T13:29:11-05:00 http://forum.germanbrewing.net/feed.php?f=55&t=347 2016-05-06T13:29:11-05:00 2016-05-06T13:29:11-05:00 http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?t=347&p=2974#p2974 <![CDATA[Re: Pitching Rates for a 1.048 lager, fast turn.]]> Statistics: Posted by Techbrau — Fri May 06, 2016 2:29 pm


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2016-05-06T12:20:54-05:00 2016-05-06T12:20:54-05:00 http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?t=347&p=2972#p2972 <![CDATA[Re: Pitching Rates for a 1.048 lager, fast turn.]]> Statistics: Posted by narcout — Fri May 06, 2016 1:20 pm


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2016-05-06T10:56:39-05:00 2016-05-06T10:56:39-05:00 http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?t=347&p=2971#p2971 <![CDATA[Re: Pitching Rates for a 1.048 lager, fast turn.]]> Statistics: Posted by mchrispen — Fri May 06, 2016 11:56 am


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2016-05-06T09:04:15-05:00 2016-05-06T09:04:15-05:00 http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?t=347&p=2968#p2968 <![CDATA[Re: Pitching Rates for a 1.048 lager, fast turn.]]> Statistics: Posted by Techbrau — Fri May 06, 2016 10:04 am


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2016-05-06T08:42:13-05:00 2016-05-06T08:42:13-05:00 http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?t=347&p=2967#p2967 <![CDATA[Re: Pitching Rates for a 1.048 lager, fast turn.]]> Statistics: Posted by Owenbräu — Fri May 06, 2016 9:42 am


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2016-05-06T08:36:44-05:00 2016-05-06T08:36:44-05:00 http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?t=347&p=2966#p2966 <![CDATA[Re: Pitching Rates for a 1.048 lager, fast turn.]]> Statistics: Posted by Owenbräu — Fri May 06, 2016 9:36 am


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2016-05-06T08:31:58-05:00 2016-05-06T08:31:58-05:00 http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?t=347&p=2965#p2965 <![CDATA[Re: Pitching Rates for a 1.048 lager, fast turn.]]> Statistics: Posted by Bryan R — Fri May 06, 2016 9:31 am


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2016-05-05T23:42:22-05:00 2016-05-05T23:42:22-05:00 http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?t=347&p=2964#p2964 <![CDATA[Re: Pitching Rates for a 1.048 lager, fast turn.]]>
I also stop the stirring after 6 hours to let krausen form. Mark Van Ditta proposed using a media flask and shaking until the entire starter is foamed, maximizing yeast to O2 available surface area, and pitching at high krausen - roughly within 8-10 hours. I adapted my process to mimic his "Shaken, not Stirred" methodology.

I cannot claim lab quality results. Using a hemocytometer, do basic counts, noting all budding cells at 90 minute intervals over 4-6 hours. Then using higher optical power, look at both mother and daughter cells to determine scars and new buds. This is done in a normal starter, with 100x dilution and m/b staining (added during dilution). With what I have seen, yeast subjected to sheer forces yield a substantial larger number of very small daughter cells, many that cannot metabolize the meth blue dye. I have not done GC or MS analysis to determine off-flavors empirically. I tend to favor viability over cell mass - as a replication cycle is only 90 minutes. Viability (in my method) is to count and compare mothers with 2+ buds at least 50% of the mother size. With some zinc and magnesium in the starter, along with a shot of pure O2, you should exit the lag phase within an hour (assuming tempering the yeast to room temps). Then it is a simple matter of setting timers, using a hemocytometer, meth blue staining, and a decent scope, and a lot of free time. (all done in a 1.040 starter wort with extra pale DME + yeast nutrient). I need to look this up in the Boulton/Quain Yeast and Fermentation book to confirm.

If I let the yeast go dormant (like a missed brew-day, so crashing the starter), then decanting and adding a 1.030 starter wort on it - and timing to pitch at high krausen yields impressively short lags, especially at 1 M/P or higher cell counts.

I have not done the plating over sequential starters (96 samples over the log/exponential phase from iterative starters is the golden standard proposed by Luria & Delbrück). So take it as anecdotal at best. (qualification, I clearly muffed my first LODO experiment). YMMV.

A simple experiment to confirm is to run a "shaken" or mildly stirred starter side by side with a "stirred" starter, and simply smelling and tasting the supernatant - it is striking. Let it run till expected FG, cold crash - taste the resulting clear beer. A partial hop pellet included in the starter wort seems to eliminate or suppress any unwanted LAB growth.

Statistics: Posted by mchrispen — Fri May 06, 2016 12:42 am


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2016-05-05T22:40:34-05:00 2016-05-05T22:40:34-05:00 http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?t=347&p=2963#p2963 <![CDATA[Pitching Rates for a 1.048 lager, fast turn.]]>
http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2013/03 ... st-growth/

BTW, which method did you use to confirm that you had fewer petite mutant cells?

Statistics: Posted by Owenbräu — Thu May 05, 2016 11:40 pm


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2016-05-05T22:04:17-05:00 2016-05-05T22:04:17-05:00 http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?t=347&p=2962#p2962 <![CDATA[Re: Pitching Rates for a 1.048 lager, fast turn.]]>
Do you use a microscope? If so, what model? That is my next purchase after all my brewing gear is complete.

Statistics: Posted by caedus — Thu May 05, 2016 11:04 pm


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2016-05-05T21:40:47-05:00 2016-05-05T21:40:47-05:00 http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?t=347&p=2961#p2961 <![CDATA[Re: Pitching Rates for a 1.048 lager, fast turn.]]>
Are you using a vitality styled starter? (pitching at high krausen and oxygenated) or crashing/decanting with yeast in dormancy? I realize this takes longer with lager yeasts (dormancy).

Statistics: Posted by mchrispen — Thu May 05, 2016 10:40 pm


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2016-05-05T21:13:51-05:00 2016-05-05T21:13:51-05:00 http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?t=347&p=2960#p2960 <![CDATA[Pitching Rates for a 1.048 lager, fast turn.]]>
Not sure about the stir plate protocol. Typically, you'll see more growth with faster speeds. A vortex dipping down 1/2"-3/4" is adequately fast. The continuous movement will quickly off-gas any supersaturation from the pure O2 charge, so I doubt there is much benefit to it.

With your higher temps and above average pitching rate, you should be able to turn this over pretty quickly.

Statistics: Posted by Owenbräu — Thu May 05, 2016 10:13 pm


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2016-05-05T20:56:54-05:00 2016-05-05T20:56:54-05:00 http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?t=347&p=2958#p2958 <![CDATA[Pitching Rates for a 1.048 lager, fast turn.]]>
Planning to reboot my failed A/B Bav Helles-like experiment. Since I lost a week (overdosed the SMB and the beer is not good), I plan to proceed with a slightly revised recipe (there were some really nice honey like notes despite the compounding sulfur problems and lack of attenuation). That said - 11 gallon recipes @ 1.048. Going to skip the sparge and top up the boil with DO liquor to get to my preboil volume/gravity.

So, to the question. I plan to purchase fresh yeast, and get them into a 5L starter (using a very slow spin on stir plate for 12 hours + a hit of pure O2). Most calcs put me at 743 billion cells for 11 gallons @ 48 points. I understand that a few of you pitch nearly double.

In this case, I am planning primary pitch at 48F, free rise to 52F to hold (the rise is slow in a freezer, about 24 hours). 4-5 days till it hits about 1.025, then free rise till 60F for a 3 day D-rest. Then a 24 hour crash to 34F and lager as long as possible (14 days or until FG). Might take longer, but I have turned mediocre (by old measures) lagers this way. I would like to gather some A/B data at a home-brew club meeting early June.

So - comments on pitching rates, O2 saturations after pitching and recommendations on ferment schedule for a quick turn.

CAVEAT - this is for an experiment and not for an optimally cold fermented, long lager helles. This should NOT be construed as good advice for any authentic German lager. I don't want folks thinking this is the PROPER way.

Statistics: Posted by mchrispen — Thu May 05, 2016 9:56 pm


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