Horst Dornbusch on the Low O2 Brewing paper

[Brandon]

[Bryan R]

I know for a fact kit gave away all his "homebrewing" books to one of our "lucky" Homebrew club members.

[Kit_B]

Indeed, I did.

I find it to be incredibly unfortunate that so many of the "experts" are disputing this method, while flat-out ignoring the portion of the paper in which it is clearly stated that we know professional breweries employ completely different methods.

But, then I realize...
Of course, they're contending our method & saying that it's too complicated & unreasonable...
Many of them have based their careers upon their own methods, books, lectures, endorsements, products & pseudo-science.
There's far too much at stake & they have a lot linked to the past.

I will readily admit that I used to say "HSA is a myth".
If you search other forums, you'll easily find me saying that.
I was absolutely WRONG.

Oxygen is trying to ruin everyone's beer, at every step of the brewing process.

Opinions on the matter mean nothing, to me.

[Owenbräu]

[bjanat]

It´s funny to read Ron Pattison taking Dornbusch apart
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.no/2011/ ... horst.html
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.no/2011/ ... again.html
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.no/2011/ ... lshit.html
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.no/2011/ ... lshit.html

[doctorjames]

[bjanat]

synchronized thinking .

IMO the paper is in line with what he wrote in BYO: "Nothing short of perfection is the goal of making this Bavarian lager. The brewer must strive for the most sublime balance of subtle, rich, elegant maltiness and lingering, noble hoppiness. Making a Helles is a challenge not just for the adventurous homebrewer; it is a tough assignment even for the trained professional. Helles is a gentle beer, so you must brew it with a gentle, but sure, touch." http://byo.com/mead/item/747-helles-style-profile

But it´s hard to understand the harsh tone from Denny and Horst, other than by concluding there is a special kind of beer celebrity who doesn´t accept to be challenged. And it´s not the scientist kind. This is off-topic, but an entertaining pissing contest about the Oxford Companion to Beer, found it by googling Martyn Cornell. Garrett Oliver didn´t enjoy criticism of a big piece of work that many people had worked hard on. http://beerblog.genx40.com/archive/2011 ... ttoliveron pretty good comments section

[doctorjames]

You're quite right: a lot of the US homebrewing fads and fashions come about not through science but drumming up an audience for podcasts and magazines that rely on advertising. The more novel and controversial the better for this purpose. They do little research and reading of their own and instead repeat hearsay and "received wisdom". It's this that has most wound up Martyn, Ron and Charlie Bamforth — that despite referenced sources and scientific articles being easily and cheaply/freely available, they continue to repeat wildly incorrectly information, including in the Oxford Companion.

(Did you see Horst Dornbusch actually replied to Martyn directly here:
)

Bamforth wrote about the low-O2 mash and benefits of sulphur dioxide (though the focus was on flavour stability on the shelf, rather than flavour subtlety), in this article on page 5: but then what would he know?

[Das alte]

Dorkbusch tells stories. Same as Conn man. Hearsay was invented by a Monk in the 11th century. Hearsay was a one eyed guy that people would go to for advice. Prester John met Hearsay during the 13th century. Monks and Mandeville wrote comic books back in the day, too. And just as in the home brewing world, comic books have been written about brewing. The best part; some of the people believed the books written back then, in the same way as some of the people believe in books written about brewing do today, as gospel. I read that high side aeration is a myth, it has to be gospel. However, the guy that wrote about it produced two batches of syrup beer before becoming an authority on brewing. I dumped a batch of beer due to aeration that was caused by a leak between the hop back and pump inlet. I can't recall ever having aeration issues upstream of the boiler. I boil brewing water to de-aerate and I am anal about moving mash between the mashtun and decoction kettle and between the mashtun and lautertun, ensuring that the mash isn't slopped in or out. I pay very close attention when the mash is being stirred to ensure that air isn't whipped in. But, that's how I roll. Decoctions de-aerate during boiling, the same as wort de-aerates in the boiler. Husk contains air and boiling the B-Jesus out of it removes the air. High side aeration in mash or boiler should be of little concern to a decoction method brewer if things aren't hurriedly, slopped in. Perhaps, air that is in water and grain by nature may have an influence on the final product. I am not going to get spun up about it.

[Owenbräu]

Bamforth has been hot and cold on oxidation. I imagine there is a lot of pragmatism to the focus of his work. You could spend a career investigating questions on both the hot side and the cold side, as well as loss of flavor and creation of off-flavors. Imagine him walking into any 1 of 4000 breweries in the USA and telling them that even though they are already hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars in debt, they needed to update their infrastructure to adapt to lodo. They'd politely show him the door, and he wouldn't be of much use to existing breweries. But, he can easily and cost effectively focus on the cold side, which is extremely important for the stability of what flavor those breweries already have in their product. At the same time, he is fully aware that Kunze and Narziss are already established in lodo research, so his own niche must be different. It's better to be the king of cold-side than a 'me to' on the hot side.

Point being, I think Bamforth gets it. But, as an endowed professor with extension responsibilities, he must be practical too. The infrastructure of American breweries (minus a few) just aren't set up for lodo brewing.