Help with a Helles

[Brody]

Hi Everyone - I'm about to tackle my first Helles. So far I have only a few lagers under my belt although I've been home brewing ales for a few years now. I wanted to run my procedure & recipe by you guys for some feedback:

The Mash: So far I've only done single infusion mashes but my plan is to tackle a Hockhurz (no decoction) for this one. The plan is to start with a 135f protein rest for 10m, 145f rest for 30m, and finally a 158f rest for 45m. Targeting a mash pH of ~5.5 (using 88% lactic acid). As far as grain bill goes I was originally planning on going either 100% Weyerman Pils or 98% Pils/2% Carahell. I had been under the understanding that Helles were all Pils but it looks like a lot of you guys throw 10 to 15% Vienna into the mix. Would 85% Pils 15% Vienna be a better choice? My assumption is that the breweries control the malting process and this mix is to try to approximate that. Water for the style is pretty soft right? Any suggestions on Calcium, Sulfate, and Chloride levels? Thinking about full volume no sparge. I know the germans mash thin (but not this thin) but my thoughts are that could more be a production brewery decision. Anyone predict any negatives from this approach?

The Boil: I'll adjust the boil pH to 5.1 - any thoughts on 60m vs 90m and boil intensity?For hops I was planning on a single FHW addition of Saaz probably but am definitely open to later hoping or different varieties if you guys think it will produce a better result.

Fermentation: I plan to pitch at fermentation temp and ferment in a corny in my chest freezer. I have access to free lager yeast from a local brewpub (he calls it czechvar, I think it may be Wyeast 2000). This allows me to easily pitch a lot of cells without building a starter. Think this is a good call? I know it's Czech but hell, didn't the Czechs originally get their lager yeast from Bavaria? I'm open to buying some yeast and building a starter. I'll do a diacytel rest at 65f (room temp) for a few days, jump it to another keg, crash cool, gelatin, and carbonate. I'll check the final pH and could adjust it down to 4.2 with lactic acid if fermentation doesn't do that for me.

The resources I've used mostly so far has been Kai's stuff (of course) and the Quest for Edelstoff blog - Feel free to poke some holes in this, it's new turf for me and I'm looking forward to learning from you guys.

[Roachbrau]

I speak for a lot of guys here when I say, the first step to brewing good German beers is to forget everything you know about homebrewing That being said, it sounds like you're on the right track!

135 is too high for your protein rest, I'd just skip that and start at the first sacch rest to simplify, since it's your first step mash. Since you're doing two sacch steps, a 143 beta rest for 30 mins should give you the same result.

I'd also raise the second rest to 162, that or add a 10 min mashout at 167-170.

I'd go with either the straight pils or 2% CaraHell; if that doesn't give you enough oomph, then try adding a little something else next time.

I don't know what your source water is like, but the general consensus is that Pilsen water is a good start. I use my well water with no modification, everything except bicarb is <25ppm.

I'd shoot for 5.3-5.4 mash pH, to slightly favor proteolysis and beta amylase. Wait until at least 15 mins into the boil to correct the boil pH, to establish a good hot break.

Saaz should work fine; if you're using the tinseth formula, target an IBU level about 5 lower than what you actually want, as the formula seems to be off below 25 ibus. A better idea is to go the German route and hop based on alpha acid amount per preboil volume, and forget the homebrewer formulas.

Boiloff should be less than 15% by volume, closer to 10% is ideal. Do whatever it takes to get there.

Fermentation sounds alright, but let it lager for a few weeks before you try the gelatin, it may not be necessary if everything went well in the brewing process. Same goes for the post-fermentation acid; if that's necessary, it's better to solve what's causing the issue than to try to fix it later. As long as your fermentation is healthy, it will easily go below 4.5 on its own.

Good luck!

[Bryan R]

I will sort of get on my soap box saying, do you have a malt analysis? If not, its just a guess at what your first rest should be. 133/10 could be a good start.. Maybe.

Helles may as well be all pils, but not the pils we can get. They are all custom malting their stuff. Your best to start 98/2.

Some new information may be coming to light about optimal mash pH's. It seems as if your brewing method would determine the optimal range ( infusion, decoction, etc).

No sparge, full volume is fine. But you will most likely have wild pH swings during the mash if using soft water, so be prepared for that. I.e you will need to adjust at every step, you will most likely see .2 bumps.

Again, boil intensity is dependent on mashing method, for you in this instance with your methods that would be ~90. I don't like a single hop addition, I split into 2 or 3 additions. Personally I would not use saaz for a helles, nor would I use Czech yeast. Czech hops and yeast will make your helles, not a helles pretty fast. The yeast (czech) will accentuate hops, and you need malt accentuated. Now, will it be a good beer? Probably. Will it be a helles? No.

Not sure why you chose 4.2 for a final pH, but I would look into proper brewing techniques first. Once again your brewing method will determine where the final pH needs to be. Otherwise, I agree with Steve.

Problem is, that there is a lot more to brewing the proper helles, than water, ingredients, and mash. You are missing 3 or so more main components, and all the sub components that go with them.

[Brody]

Appreciate the advice so far guys:

Roachbrau:
- Protein rest in general is new turf for me.
- For water I'm going to blend RO with philly tap using Brun Water as a guide.
- So you're saying don't drop the pH from mash until 10m into the boil?
German hops sound good - on the Edelstoff blog Saaz was listed (along with Tettang, Spalt, Select, Tradition, and Herksbrucker) as traditional Helles hops. I've used Saaz before and liked it but I'm thinking a German hop will be more appropriate to avoid a Helles/Czech Pils hybrid.
- Waiting on the Gel is a good idea. I'll definitely measure final pH before any adjustments - I have been on target so far by going into the fermentor on target.

Bryan: Yea, I got the malt analysis. Downloaded that massive Weyerman zip. I looked at a few things on it.

1) Kolbach ranges from 36 to 42.5 which seems to correlate to either no protein rest or a short one at a high temp. Either 135f for 10m (38-41%) or 129f for 20m (35-38%)

Then (going back to the Edelstoff blog) I compared it to the malt suitable for a hockhurz helles.

2) The target protein of < 10.8% is similar to Weyermans 9.5 to 11.5 (a lot of variability there).
3) Solubility/SRN target of > 40%... dumb question here but is that Holbach? Which I understand to be Soluble Protein over Total Nitrogen?
4) Friability target is >85%. Weyerman is 84%
5) Viscosity target is <1.5, Weyerman is 1.58

So basically every target is close but not exact. The suggestion there was to dough in from 113f to 131f to compensate.

98/2 pilsner to carahell sounds like a good start.

Interesting about the pH swings. I mashed a pils/saaz/2000 smash before full volume using real soft water built up from distilled. I measured 10m in, and pre-boil and hit targets. You're saying if I keep measuring I'll have wild swings?

~90 boil intensity as in target a 10% boiloff right?

Any recommendations for a solid Helles yeast to start off with? Hallertauer for the hops maybe?

Final pH target from ranges I've read online. What throws me off most about that topic is Czech pils ends up higher (4.5 to 4.8). German pils below 4.4 from what I've measured and read.

By all means, point me in the right direction of these 3 key components I'm missing. Again, brewing German styles is new turf to me.

[Bryan R]

[Bryan R]

[Brody]

Those 6 keys to solid German brewing are pretty much the same key components for American & English brewing but obviously there is a lot of variance when you get into the particulars. Looking forward into looking more into all the elements!

Hops: I think I'll try a 60, 30, 10 schedule to begin. Any thoughts on using a higher alpha hop like Magnum early then Hallertauer Tradition for the 30/10 additions? Low IBUs (<20) from even additions.

Water: I'm thinking about using Kai's profile of Ca in the 20s, 30ppm S04, 40ppm Cl. Too soft? I know theres some debate about if Lagers need the usual 50ppm Calcium. I also read his article on Edel Hell where he calls for 50ppm Ca, 60ppm S04, 40ppm Cl.. although he did say you could go lower and I've heard Martin mention before there may be some benefit to lower calcium in lagers.

Fermentation: I'm leaning to WLP838 to start, heard good things. Build up a large starter, pitch cold, diacytel rest for a couple days, cold crash, jump it to the serving keg, and lager for a couple weeks. Benefits to skimming off the krausen?

Malt Composition: It looks like that's a malt sheet for the individual sack you have, whereas my report was a yearly report? That's pretty cool - not sure I can get that detail from the LHBS but it's worth a try. And even more motivation to get a mill at home. The main goal is to get the specific Kolbach to hit the proper protein rest?

pH: Interesting what you said about the pH swings during a step mash and the mashing method impacting the final pH. Mash pH seems a bit debatable - any thoughts on the optimal mash pH for a non-decoction hockhurz? 5.4? Then adjust to 5.1 at the end of the boil? Assuming a healthy fermentation, proper pitch, aeration I should end up naturally in the low to mid 4s.

Mash: Full volume, step mash, let the malt determine the initial rest, then 145f/158f steps.

Once again I appreciate all the feedback.

[Bryan R]

[Kit_B]

[Brody]

Good stuff, I'm building up a spreadsheet outlining everything and noting sources to keep myself organized.

My goal is definitely to get closer to the Bavarian style, which is the main reason I signed up here and have been reading/listening to a lot of Kai. While I haven't been to Bavaria I have been to Vienna, Austria (where fresh Helles & Pils from Germany is pretty easy to obtain) and took a liking to their brews. More locally this beer garden Frankford Hall in Philly tends to have fresh German & Pennsylvania lagers on tap - having a liter of Weihenstephaner Original on tap is a treat and has been motivating me to get more into brewing lagers.

I think I already brew a decent clean American craft style/german inspired lager with a single infusion. And I gotta say, even brewing the American way with Weyerman malts (it seems like a lot of craft beer lagers are Breiss 2 Row + C60) is a solid improvement. But, again, my goal is to move closer to an authentic German approach when brewing these styles.

Kit - Haha, yup I caught that. Thankfully I crossed the water bridge a while back with help from the Water book as well as Martin & Brun Water. Really made my American Pale Ales pop.

I'll be doing some more reading and probably follow up with you guys as I close in on everything.