Low oxygen baseline recipes for German lagers

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Bryan R
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Re: Low oxygen baseline recipes for German lagers

Postby Bryan R » Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:41 pm

I'd buy it.
missiletech
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Re: Low oxygen baseline recipes for German lagers

Postby missiletech » Sat Jul 02, 2016 3:44 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vELwUsBmWQ

Has anyone taken the time to watch this video? It's pretty informative on pitching volumes and oxygen. I prefer (generally) to underpitch slightly (which is typically one package) to get the most character out of the yeast. Oxygen ppm is always needed. Regardless, listen to this very well spoken video. Cheers!

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Big Monk
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Low oxygen baseline recipes for German lagers

Postby Big Monk » Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:00 am

missiletech wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vELwUsBmWQ

Has anyone taken the time to watch this video? It's pretty informative on pitching volumes and oxygen. I prefer (generally) to underpitch slightly (which is typically one package) to get the most character out of the yeast. Oxygen ppm is always needed. Regardless, listen to this very well spoken video. Cheers!

SteVe


Remember that oxygen has only one purpose for cell replication. That purpose becomes nearly null and void if you pitch enough healthy cells.

Bryan's wink wink comment hinted at this:

Bryan R wrote:Bigger pitches also require little to no oxygen..wink wink.. nudge nudge.
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Techbrau
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Re: Low oxygen baseline recipes for German lagers

Postby Techbrau » Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:38 am

It has been my experience that even with larger pitches, a little oxygen helps the yeast get rolling faster. I don't add very much - I just have an air stone connected to an aquarium pump that I dangle in the wort, and after pitching the yeast I let the pump run slowly (not anywhere close to fast enough to create foaming) for several hours.

I've measured that I deliver about 2 ppm per hour this way, and the yeast are capable of eating up that oxygen at a faster rate than it's getting in.

In theory, repitched yeast is oxygen depleted and requires oxygen to rebuild its cell walls. There's also a finite lifespan that each cell has, so past a certain point they won't be able to bud or ferment well. Kunze and Narziss both suggest mixing harvested yeast with freshly grown lab yeast and pitching that. I've had good results by taking a scoop of the yeast cake and using it to inoculate a starter, fermenting it out, decanting and pitching that. I'll typically make a 2-2.5 liter starter for my 13 liter batches. A starter should be very well oxygenated to help the yeast grow big and fat and ready to ferment your wort. One effective method is to use a stir plate on a slow speed (just enough to get the wort moving) for the first 8-12 hours, as this will accelerate atmospheric diffusion of oxygen into the wort and provide a constant stream of oxygen during the growth phase. You can take the starter off the plate once the yeast start of gassing. Most of the time though, I don't use my stir plate and I just give the stater a vigorous shake every time I walk by.
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Big Monk
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Re: Low oxygen baseline recipes for German lagers

Postby Big Monk » Sat Jul 02, 2016 9:14 am

I have such a small batch size (1-1.5 gal) and a single smack pack will typically ferment even my highest gravity beer, so in that regard I've always lucked out by not having to do starters.




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Ancient Abbey
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Re: Low oxygen baseline recipes for German lagers

Postby Ancient Abbey » Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:32 am

ajk wrote:Why do we use warm fermentation for the darker beers? I know Nico's post states that, just not sure why.

From my experience, the slightly warmer fermentation profile compliments the fruity, nutty and bready characters of munich and melanoidin and chocolatey notes of rostmalt. With such a high percentage of braumalts, the fermentability of darker wort will be reduced and you still want the beer to attenuate as much as possible. Slightly warmer temps will help prevent stalling with lower fermentability wort. The warmer temperature will also blow off a little more sulfur, which is not as desirable in dark biers as it is helles.
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Ancient Abbey
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Re: Low oxygen baseline recipes for German lagers

Postby Ancient Abbey » Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:45 am

I've tried the no-oxygen batch of beer, and it took a few days longer to reach EVG than batches where I oxygenated. I'm not sure there was enough flavor difference to be noticeable. I need to experiment with the Rabe pitching method, but I've been playing around with other variables and styles as of lately.

I like to take 50% of the cells I need from the cake of a previous batch and pitch it into a new starter. That way, under aerobic conditions, the cells will get healthy and as they reproduce, all of the new cells will be grown in an oxygen rich environment. You've effectively created a batch every bit as healthy as a series of built up starters, but cut your work in half. Since 50% of the cells are brand new and grown aerobically, in theory, the pitch will never have to be replaced and can be continued indefinitely. Straight cake pitching has a limited lifetime. Additionally, since we are separating the more flocculant cells from the less flocculant cells because of the transfer to spunden, we are selecting for a less attenuative yeast cake over time.

There are some conflicting theories on stir plates as well. Kai showed higher cell growth with faster speeds, but Annemüller demonstrates decreasing cell vitality with increased shear stress. Just more variables to test ;)
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Re: Low oxygen baseline recipes for German lagers

Postby phishie » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:20 pm

Bryan R wrote:Image

Here is the yeast fridge, I have 1 qt out for the beer today, and 4 more to harvest today as well..


Sorry to revive an old thread, I love the simplicity of this method but it raises so many questions for me. Please allow me to pepper you with them:

  • Do you warm up stored yeast before pitching?
  • Decant off the spent wort?
  • Any yeast "washing" to remove break?
  • Screw top on tight, snug, or loose?
  • No worry at all about selecting for the most flocculant yeast?
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Ancient Abbey
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Re: Low oxygen baseline recipes for German lagers

Postby Ancient Abbey » Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:53 pm

phishie wrote:Sorry to revive an old thread, I love the simplicity of this method but it raises so many questions for me. Please allow me to pepper you with them:

Let me speak for myself, here.

  • Do you warm up stored yeast before pitching?
    - yes (ale) and no (lager)
  • Decant off the spent wort?
    - yes
  • Any yeast "washing" to remove break?
    - yeast cake, yes. (stir plate yeast, no)
  • Screw top on tight, snug, or loose?
    - snug (canning lids are not airtight without a vacuum)
  • No worry at all about selecting for the most flocculant yeast?
    - yes, as well as vitality and lysis.
Cone to cone (yeast cake) pitching has a limited number of generations. Yeast grown aerobically can be maintained indefinitely, although changes in gene frequencies and expression is inevitable and unavoidable (albeit largely beyond the scope of what we are discussing).
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phishie
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Re: Low oxygen baseline recipes for German lagers

Postby phishie » Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:09 am

Ancient Abbey wrote:
phishie wrote:Sorry to revive an old thread, I love the simplicity of this method but it raises so many questions for me. Please allow me to pepper you with them:

Let me speak for myself, here.

  • Do you warm up stored yeast before pitching?
    - yes (ale) and no (lager)
  • Decant off the spent wort?
    - yes
  • Any yeast "washing" to remove break?
    - yeast cake, yes. (stir plate yeast, no)
  • Screw top on tight, snug, or loose?
    - snug (canning lids are not airtight without a vacuum)
  • No worry at all about selecting for the most flocculant yeast?
    - yes, as well as vitality and lysis.
Cone to cone (yeast cake) pitching has a limited number of generations. Yeast grown aerobically can be maintained indefinitely, although changes in gene frequencies and expression is inevitable and unavoidable (albeit largely beyond the scope of what we are discussing).



Thanks! What's your washing routine if reusing from a yeast cake?

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