Hefeweizen

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Smellyglove
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Re: Hefeweizen

Postby Smellyglove » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:54 pm

Weizenberg wrote:I hate to be the harbinger of bad news, but what you describe is not quite the Hermann mash (i.e. maltase mash).

The beauty of this method is that one doughs in high and thus disables a noticeable amount of LOX already. You are then doing a normal conversion cycle until it passes the iodine test, then cool to 43C.

Now several things happen

1 - the addition of the second part of the malt permits the therein contained maltase to convert the previously made maltose into glucose.

2 - since this temperature is also an optimal range for the proteolytics, you are effectively running a combined protein rest.

3 - also being in the ferulic acid range, this is made as well.

Fermentation of Weizen is crucial (best is open with regular skimming).

One can alter the sucrose and protein content by adjusting the ratio of main to secondary grist. 50:50 or 60:40 are typical values..

Weizen is a surprisingly difficult style to brew. It requires quite a lot of dedication and an accomplished brew master. When made well it's an absolute delight and a real delicacy.


Maybe I was short in my post, or I got something completely wrong. I'm doing this (basically, temps may differ), from your blog:

"The grain bill is split 50:50 and the first half is then mashed.
Mash in at 38C
Convert Maltose at 62C
Now water is added, cooling the mash down to 45C
Add the rest of the grain and maintain that temperature for a period to allow the Maltase to split the now existing Maltose into Glucocse
Then proceed as normal"

Mashing in low for a ferulic acid rest with half of the grist, then raise temp to convert at two different sacch-temps. Then add rest of water to drop the mash temp, add rest of grist and repeat mash schedule.

I see now when rereading my initial post that I didn't say that I split the grist in two.
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Weizenberg
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Re: Hefeweizen

Postby Weizenberg » Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:45 am

Yeh, that's pretty key ;)

Otherwise you won't have any maltase.
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Smellyglove
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Re: Hefeweizen

Postby Smellyglove » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:29 am

Weizenberg wrote:Yeh, that's pretty key ;)

Otherwise you won't have any maltase.


But, my initial question. Temperatures for ferrulic acid rest and maltase rest. I'm doing 43 & 37, but different sources give different optimum temperatures for those two rests. Could I just do 40C on both? And I thought protein rest had a temperature optimum at 50-55c?
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Re: Hefeweizen

Postby Weizenberg » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:54 am

You won"t need it for the first half unless you want to exaggerate clove aroma or have a substantial amount of another high protein malt in there (eg munich malt).

The long rest at 40C during the second half is a ferulic acid rest and also works for the proteolytics.

If you believe the Brewmaster at Schneider, the ferulic optima is at 38C
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Re: Hefeweizen

Postby Smellyglove » Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:43 am

Weizenberg wrote:You won"t need it for the first half unless you want to exaggerate clove aroma or have a substantial amount of another high protein malt in there (eg munich malt).

The long rest at 40C during the second half is a ferulic acid rest and also works for the proteolytics.

If you believe the Brewmaster at Schneider, the ferulic optima is at 38C


That's why I do it, I'm trying to balance the esters I get from the Herrmann. People could say "then don't do a Herrmann" but I feel the beer gets way much more richer, more ester-layers, so I do it to keep the esters and phenolics more or less balanced.

38C, right. I'm doing it at 43. And I've read that maltase-optima is at 37. But you're saying 40-ish... But to be specific, optima for both ferrulic acid and maltase is 37-38c, from what you've told med now about ferulic acid, and what I've read about maltase.

But proteolytics, like a protease-enzyme activity (protein rest)? I thought that range was closer to 50-55c.
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Re: Hefeweizen

Postby Weizenberg » Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:56 am

You combine them in the rest after you cool down. Remember that enzymes follow an analogue, not a digital pattern.

So you don't need to run at optima for everything. As long as you are sufficiently long in each curve you are ok.

Best is to experiment and take good notes. If you bother doing that, then I am sure you'll find a lot of interested people here (myself included).

At 40C you already have what is called a proper protein rest, you are still in a good optima for the Ferulic and also the Maltase. If you need to control the stuff in the second phase then I would suggest shifting the grist ratios first, then you can shift the time spent in there. Last resort would be to then tweak the temp range further.

Everyone needs to find what suits them best. Such is the nature of many things.

Prosit and Happy Brewing!
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Re: Hefeweizen

Postby Smellyglove » Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:01 pm

Weizenberg wrote:You combine them in the rest after you cool down. Remember that enzymes follow an analogue, not a digital pattern.

So you don't need to run at optima for everything. As long as you are sufficiently long in each curve you are ok.

Best is to experiment and take good notes. If you bother doing that, then I am sure you'll find a lot of interested people here (myself included).

At 40C you already have what is called a proper protein rest, you are still in a good optima for the Ferulic and also the Maltase. If you need to control the stuff in the second phase then I would suggest shifting the grist ratios first, then you can shift the time spent in there. Last resort would be to then tweak the temp range further.

Everyone needs to find what suits them best. Such is the nature of many things.

Prosit and Happy Brewing!


Aight! Thanks for your help. Oh believe me, I'm experimenting and taking notes. I'm brewing a Hefe at least once a month, adjusting one parameter at the time, dont have a micrscope yet so my pitchrates are still in the ballpark, but using same routine to calculate them every time. I'm just curious as I'm new to this forum if there's some knowledge I didn't know or techniques I didn't think about. Diving right in :)
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Re: Hefeweizen

Postby Smellyglove » Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:36 pm

I have a question for you Weizen-yeast gurus.

I just kegged my last one. And something strange happened, it might be lacto-infection, but let's say it's not. I had stable readings at 1.013 over several days, three readings, 27.02, 01.03 and 05.03. I kegged it today and read 1.010, it's slightly tart and acidic, just slightly, but enough to make me instantly go "what the hell?"

Phenols and esters are not so pronounced as they were 05.03. I'm reading that 380 can be slightly tart and acidic, but I've never noticed it before, I'm on my fourth generation. Same generation as the one before, but I fucked that one up and kegged it after 8 days, so I'm not sure what the end result would be like, but they tasted exactly the same at day 8.

So, if it's not an infection, can 380 do this? I've never come across this before. And that slight tartness, and lack of those lovely phenols and esters makes me want to dump it.

I'm guessing it's infected, but I want to check other possibilities first.

It was brewed on 20th february. Pitched at 13, up to 17 over 18hrs, then held at 17, and up to 19 over18 hrs on the 5th of mars. OG was 1.050.
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Re: Hefeweizen

Postby Smellyglove » Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:51 pm

And. As a separate post when it comes to fermenting Hefeweizen. I've noticed that they actually taste close to best, just before the onset of sulpfur production starts, in my setup that's around the seventh day mark. They are bombs of esters and phenols, which slowly diminishes over time. My guess is that it's active suspended yeast.

My hefe's normally land on 1.012, which is right on the spot where I'd want them, 1.013 isn't that bad either, given my target OG of 1.052, (last one came in at 1.050, still dialing in efficiency-bump from the Herrmann-mash). I'm figuring I'd want to transfer and spund the next one just after sulfur-has been mostly vented out the airlock, which would leave me a few points left in the keg.

Anyone has any input to my experiences with this taste-issue?
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Re: Hefeweizen

Postby TheHairyHop » Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:00 pm

wouldn't a pH reading be a good place to go next?

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