Discussion: Recipe considerations for LoDO

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Weizenberg
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Re: Discussion: Recipe considerations for LoDO

Postby Weizenberg » Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:59 pm

Thanks for being amenable :)

For what it's worth. The tenets of good practice hold regardless the yeast and grain bill. In essence, whether it's a Yorkshire bitter, a German ale, a Bavarian Helles, a German Pils or a Bohemian Dunkel... whatever one can think of, the tenets hold.

These tenets held for a pretty long time too and much effort was spent in the modern world understanding why all these cogs and wheels produced this sort of stuff.

There is the romantic notion of going back to the good old days where ignorance was bliss and whatever ended up in the pot somehow became beer.

It does, but no thanks.

So yes! I applaud you for broadening the horizon and venturing into the British ale territory and applying what you know now.

That's the spirit! It's bound for success and a very pleasurable experience on your part :)

Best
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Techbrau
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Re: Discussion: Recipe considerations for LoDO

Postby Techbrau » Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:02 pm

I recently did a round of 10 LoDO mini mashes with a bunch of different malts because I wanted to chronicle some tasting notes all in one session and side by side. These are just wort tasting notes, not final beer.

All mashes were adjusted to 5.2 pH with an appropriate amount of acidulated malt and mashed at about 150 F for approx 30 min. Each mash was 25g malt into 100 ml water.

Base malts:
100% Pilsner (Best Malz): Crisp, fresh bread, hot cereal, malt-o-meal, bit of corn flakes
100% Vienna (Weyermann Barke): Pie crust, croissant, pastries
100% light Munich (Best Malz): Raisin bran flakes, bread crust, graham cracker, slight toast.

Specialty malts: 20% specialty malt, 80% pilsner
Carafoam (Weyermann): Tastes exactly like Pez candy
Carahell (Weyermann): Bright, honey-like, almost fruit juicy sweetness
Carared (Weyermann): Hard candy-like sweetness, bit of toffee, not as bright as Carahell
Caramunich 1 (Weyermann): Sour, caramel, mild dry fruit
Caramunich 2 (Weyermann): Sour, nutty, burnt caramel, mild dry fruit
Carabohemian (Weyermann): Sour, burnt toast, chocolate, prunes, dried fruit
Melanoidin malt (Wyermann): Grape nuts cereal, amped-up munich malt. Not overpowering at all at 20%

I tried some blending experiments as well, e.g. blending the caramunich wort with straight pilsner malt wort to dilute it to the equivalent of 5% caramunich + 95% pilsner. At this ratio, the sour/burnt/bitter flavors actually completely disappear and instead you're left with the far more pleasant caramelly, nutty, and dried fruity flavors which seem to be even more easily perceived in the absence of the burnt/sour notes. I have 5% caramunich 2 in a bohemian pilsner right now that's just about ready to drink, and I really like it a lot.

A few random thoughts I currently have on recipe development (subject to change of course):

I only really get the crisp, refreshing character from pilsner malt. Darker base malts are delicious, but taste much more "warm" whereas pilsner malt tastes "cool", if that analogy makes sense. A helles made with 20% Vienna is bready and delicious for certain, but tastes a bit less refreshing to me than one made with 10%, if a hot weather thirst quencher is what you're after.

However, 100% pilsner malt all on its a bit one-dimensional - blend it with something else for better results (but don't go gonzo, use a light touch). For pale lagers, a grist at 3.8-4.0 EBC for the color of the "blend" seems to work well IME and jives with Narziss' recommendations. But if you're making a marzen, dunkel, etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with loading up on the darker base malts.

Melanoidin malt is surprisingly not overpowering in the wort at least. I haven't yet had a chance to push it in quantity in a full batch of beer.

Carafoam has a very strong and distinct candy-like flavor in the wort that is extremely reminiscent of Pez. It has me wondering what kind of flavor impact 10% or more would have in a real beer.

Most beers should in general probably use 5% or less caramel malt. You can use none if you want but I think caramel malt really rounds out the flavor of the beer. Base malt flavor is more upfront, whereas caramel malt flavor sits in the finish of the sip (and lingers). I like 2-4% depending on what I'm making.

The perceived flavor of different malts, especially darker caramel malts, seems to be nonlinear w.r.t. % of the grist. Scaling the amount up or down doesn't just weaken or intensify the same basic flavor. The flavor of the malt is actually different depending on how much you use. Lots of flavor active compounds work this way, e.g. the yeast ester ethyl acetate tastes/smelles like pears in low concentrations but nail polish remover in higher concentrations.
If you always do what you've always done, then you'll always get what you've always gotten.
Natebriscoe
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Re: RE: Re: Discussion: Recipe considerations for LoDO

Postby Natebriscoe » Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:11 pm

Techbrau wrote:I recently did a round of 10 LoDO mini mashes with a bunch of different malts because I wanted to chronicle some tasting notes all in one session and side by side. These are just wort tasting notes, not final beer.

All mashes were adjusted to 5.2 pH with an appropriate amount of acidulated malt and mashed at about 150 F for approx 30 min. Each mash was 25g malt into 100 ml water.

Base malts:
100% Pilsner (Best Malz): Crisp, fresh bread, hot cereal, malt-o-meal, bit of corn flakes
100% Vienna (Weyermann Barke): Pie crust, croissant, pastries
100% light Munich (Best Malz): Raisin bran flakes, bread crust, graham cracker, slight toast.

Specialty malts: 20% specialty malt, 80% pilsner
Carafoam (Weyermann): Tastes exactly like Pez candy
Carahell (Weyermann): Bright, honey-like, almost fruit juicy sweetness
Carared (Weyermann): Hard candy-like sweetness, bit of toffee, not as bright as Carahell
Caramunich 1 (Weyermann): Sour, caramel, mild dry fruit
Caramunich 2 (Weyermann): Sour, nutty, burnt caramel, mild dry fruit
Carabohemian (Weyermann): Sour, burnt toast, chocolate, prunes, dried fruit
Melanoidin malt (Wyermann): Grape nuts cereal, amped-up munich malt. Not overpowering at all at 20%

I tried some blending experiments as well, e.g. blending the caramunich wort with straight pilsner malt wort to dilute it to the equivalent of 5% caramunich + 95% pilsner. At this ratio, the sour/burnt/bitter flavors actually completely disappear and instead you're left with the far more pleasant caramelly, nutty, and dried fruity flavors which seem to be even more easily perceived in the absence of the burnt/sour notes. I have 5% caramunich 2 in a bohemian pilsner right now that's just about ready to drink, and I really like it a lot.

A few random thoughts I currently have on recipe development (subject to change of course):

I only really get the crisp, refreshing character from pilsner malt. Darker base malts are delicious, but taste much more "warm" whereas pilsner malt tastes "cool", if that analogy makes sense. A helles made with 20% Vienna is bready and delicious for certain, but tastes a bit less refreshing to me than one made with 10%, if a hot weather thirst quencher is what you're after.

However, 100% pilsner malt all on its a bit one-dimensional - blend it with something else for better results (but don't go gonzo, use a light touch). For pale lagers, a grist at 3.8-4.0 EBC for the color of the "blend" seems to work well IME and jives with Narziss' recommendations. But if you're making a marzen, dunkel, etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with loading up on the darker base malts.

Melanoidin malt is surprisingly not overpowering in the wort at least. I haven't yet had a chance to push it in quantity in a full batch of beer.

Carafoam has a very strong and distinct candy-like flavor in the wort that is extremely reminiscent of Pez. It has me wondering what kind of flavor impact 10% or more would have in a real beer.

Most beers should in general probably use 5% or less caramel malt. You can use none if you want but I think caramel malt really rounds out the flavor of the beer. Base malt flavor is more upfront, whereas caramel malt flavor sits in the finish of the sip (and lingers). I like 2-4% depending on what I'm making.

The perceived flavor of different malts, especially darker caramel malts, seems to be nonlinear w.r.t. % of the grist. Scaling the amount up or down doesn't just weaken or intensify the same basic flavor. The flavor of the malt is actually different depending on how much you use. Lots of flavor active compounds work this way, e.g. the yeast ester ethyl acetate tastes/smelles like pears in low concentrations but nail polish remover in higher concentrations.

Fantastic write up!
I want to do this to but can't find the time.
Bryan R
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Re: Discussion: Recipe considerations for LoDO

Postby Bryan R » Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:21 am

Indeed, nice work tech.


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Ancient Abbey
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Re: Discussion: Recipe considerations for LoDO

Postby Ancient Abbey » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:14 pm

Do you suspect the sour notes on the higher caramalts are simply pH related due to using them as 20% of the grist?

I second the high percentage of metanoiding malt. My last rauchbier was 15%, and it comes through like the grist is 40-50% Munich malt.
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Techbrau
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Re: Discussion: Recipe considerations for LoDO

Postby Techbrau » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:20 pm

I don't think so, because I attempted to hit 5.2 pH for every single mini-mash. So for the 100% pilsner grist, it was actually 96% pilsner + 4% acidulated malt, but I used about 1-2% acid malt for the caramunich mini mashes.

80% pilsner + 20% melanoidin malt was eerily similar to the 100% light munich malt wort. About the same color, and a very similar flavor too. I guess it makes sense because melanoidin malt is about 5x the color of light munich malt. Makes me wonder if 1% melanoidin = 3% dark munich = 5% light munich is a reasonable substitution rule to use in recipes in general.
If you always do what you've always done, then you'll always get what you've always gotten.
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Ancient Abbey
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Re: Discussion: Recipe considerations for LoDO

Postby Ancient Abbey » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:31 pm

Based on color, I think so. The mema is kilned at a slightly higher temp (maltster specific of course) so some different melanoidins and caramels will be created. If they are present at sufficient levels for taste thresholds remains another question.
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Bryan R
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Re: Discussion: Recipe considerations for LoDO

Postby Bryan R » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:37 pm

You discussed Carafoam, I have been trying for some time to put my finger on the non-descript sweetness of WO. Could CF be at play here?
Techbrau
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Re: Discussion: Recipe considerations for LoDO

Postby Techbrau » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:50 pm

Maybe, but I don't know yet whether the unique flavor of carafoam in the wort actually carries over into the final beer.

As much as it's purported to increase body and foam without impacting flavor, it sure tastes different from any other malt in the wort.
If you always do what you've always done, then you'll always get what you've always gotten.
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Re: Discussion: Recipe considerations for LoDO

Postby Ancient Abbey » Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:51 pm

Carapils may be the least standardized malt out there and every maltster claims to have their own unique method for making it. Caramels, dextrins, diastatic power, fermentability, etc. can all vary between maltsters. It would be interesting to see what flavors you get comparing Best, Weyermann, Briess, etc.
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