Narziss' advice on Marzen

[Techbrau]

OG: 13-14 Plato
Color: 9-12 EBC for modern varieties, 18-30 EBC for traditional.
Bitterness: 20-26

Recipe guidelines:
He says that the paler, modern version is essentially a "richer" export/helles but does not elaborate much. He gives more in the way of guidelines for the traditional, amber version.

Water: Variable. 2-10 dH residual alkalinity works well. He says to try to hit a mash pH of 5.6. He doesn't mention boiling acidification, but I assume that it might be a good idea to drop it to below 5.4 as you go into the boil.

There are two approaches to designing a grist:
1) Heavy on Munich malt, lighter on caramel malt.
2) Light on Munich malt, heavier on caramel malt.

For both cases, he recommends using the 15 EBC Munich malt, aka light Munich malt. If you're going with option 1), use between 50% and 80% Munich malt, and if you're going with option 2), use 33% Munich malt. For caramalts, he gives a range of 3-6% for carahell, and/or 2-5% for caramunich. Melanoidin malt can also be substituted for a portion of the caramunich, but he only mentions this in the context of option 2). Option 1) should stick to the lower end of these ranges (or omit the caramunich alltogether), whereas option 2) should emphasize the caramunich. Of course, finding the right balance of the caramalts for your taste is up to you.

For option 1), he suggests doughing in at 35C and immediately heating to 55-57C. He then recommends a double decoction with rests at 55C, 68C, and 77C. Option 2) can use the same double decoction but with the 35C rest removed. He recommends a mash thickness of 1:3 (I assume kilogram:liter), and a final attenutation not below 78%.

Source: Die Bierbrauerei volume 2, chapter 3

My thoughts: It's interesting that there is no mention of Vienna malt, given that most homebrew recipes emphasize Vienna. These tips may reflect Narziss' personal tastes for the style - is it possible that there are German breweries who do use Vienna in their marzens? I don't know.

[Bryan R]

Perhaps the Vienna in our recipes is an attempt to mimic the rich flavors we get from these beers. The problem is US brewers approach these German beers completely wrong and backwards. I am just as guilty of this as the next guy.

[Techbrau]

I think Vienna is much more appropriate in Austrian style beers, e.g. I can definitely taste the toastiness of Vienna malt in Stiegl Goldbrau. I get less toast notes in Bavarian marzen, and I think that the richness people are trying to get with Vienna is actually coming from the caramalts. He says you can get away with using much more (relatively speaking - up to 5 or 6% instead of 2 or 3%) in the way of caramalt in this style compared to helles, presumably because it's a richer beer but also because it has a higher bitterness to balance.

[Bryan R]

Here is the recipe I was going to brew Friday(all with my aged hops), now I am second guessing it.

Recipe: Festbier 15
Brewer:
Asst Brewer:
Style: Festbier
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 11.83 gal
Post Boil Volume: 9.88 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 7.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.055 SG
Estimated Color: 7.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 15.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 88.2 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
10 lbs 16.0 oz Vienna Malt (Weyermann Barke) (3.7 SRM) Grain 1 69.8 %
3 lbs 14.8 oz Munich (Weyermann Barke) (8.1 SRM) Grain 2 24.9 %
6.9 oz Caramunich II (Weyermann) (63.0 SRM) Grain 3 2.7 %
6.3 oz Weyermann Barke Pilsner (toasted) (15.0 Grain 4 2.5 %
0.33 oz Hallertau Magnum [12.20 %] - First Wort Hop 5 9.4 IBUs
0.33 oz Perle [8.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 6 4.3 IBUs
0.50 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 7 -
0.33 oz Saaz [3.75 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 1.3 IBUs
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins) Other 9 -
1.0 pkg House Strain (White Labs/Wyeast #WLP833/ Yeast 10 -


Mash Schedule: Narziss
Total Grain Weight: 15 lbs 12.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 14.52 gal of water at 139.2 F 135.0 F 10 min
Mash Step Add -0.00 gal of water and heat to 143. 143.0 F 60 min
Mash Step Heat to 162.0 F over 12 min 162.0 F 55 min
Mash Step Heat to 172.0 F over 6 min 172.0 F 10 min

[Techbrau]

I'm sure it will be tasty anyway. The only thing I might change is to move the magnum to a 60 minute bittering addition and use some aroma hops for FWH - Narziss mentions this in chapter 5:

"Bei der Hopfung der Vorder oder Läuterwürze dürfen aber nur frische bzw. optimal gelagerte Aromahopfen Verwendung finden. Bitterhopfen würden hier wiederum eine unerwünschte Bitternote hervorrufen."

Basically, he says for FWH you should use only high quality aroma varieties because bittering hops may impart an unpleasant bitterness.

[Bryan R]

How about this...

Recipe: Narziss Festbier
Brewer: The Beerery
Asst Brewer:
Style: Festbier
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 11.83 gal
Post Boil Volume: 9.88 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 7.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated Color: 6.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 16.1 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 88.2 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
9 lbs 8.0 oz Weyermann Barke Pilsner (1.7 SRM) Grain 1 61.0 %
4 lbs Munich (Weyermann Barke) (8.1 SRM) Grain 2 25.7 %
1 lbs Vienna Malt (Weyermann Barke) (3.7 SRM) Grain 3 6.4 %
11.0 oz Carahell (Weyermann) (13.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.4 %
6.1 oz Caramunich II (Weyermann) (63.0 SRM) Grain 5 2.4 %
0.40 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [6.00 %] - First Hop 6 6.0 IBUs
0.20 oz Hallertau Magnum [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 m Hop 7 5.1 IBUs
0.50 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [6.00 %] - Boil Hop 8 4.9 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Narziss Festbier
Total Grain Weight: 15 lbs 9.1 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 14.50 gal of water at 96.4 F 95.0 F 5 min
Mash Step Add 0.00 gal of water and heat to 154.0 154.0 F 60 min
Mash Step Add 0.00 gal of water and heat to 170.0 170.0 F 10 min

[Techbrau]

Looks outstanding to me - sort of in between a festbier and a traditional marzen.

Edit: one more issue I see is that you are missing the rest step at 55C. With a single sacch rest at 68C you may not get a highly fermentable wort and the beer will end up too sweet. Based on his attenuation recommendations you don't want the final apparent extract for your recipe to be any higher than 2.9 plato. You want to go for as much fermentability as you can, especially with 7% caramalt.

[Bryan R]

I added a 10 minute rest at 56c, as I had the same feelings you did. I am ramping at 1.5f/min today as well.

[Weizenberg]

[Bryan R]