The current thinking on Sulfites, G-Tannins, AA and scavenging

Making the beer

Moderator: Brandon

User avatar
Cavpilot2000
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:00 am

The current thinking on Sulfites, G-Tannins, AA and scavenging

Postby Cavpilot2000 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:19 pm

So I'm starting to see references on here about using a mix (50/50 IIRC) of NaMeta and KMeta as the sulfite component of the Trifecta (and variants thereof) instead of just sticking to NaMeta. Is this in an effort to reduce the sodium contribution? The sodium contribution seems too trivial to really worry about it. Does the potassium add anything, because early on in the process, everyone was all about use NaMeta, not Kmeta.

I understand evolution of the process, but I don't think there has been a narrative written down of that evolution and where best practices currently stand. You have to scan dozens of diferent threads to pick up tidbits that pop up here and there. Of course, each brewer's system will dictate its own version, and everyone will have theories and opinions, but as a newbie trying to get up to speed and dial in my own processes, I am keenly interested in taking the shortcut of standing on the shoulders of giants. So can one of you guys who has been doing this a while and who has done the experiments catch us newbies up on the current science?

It looks like we started with NaMeta (don't use KMeta).
Then went to Antioxin SBT, which brought gallotannins and AA into play.
Then we went to home-brewed Antioxin blends (the Trifecta), preferring 45/45/10 of NaMeta/AA/BTB.
Now some are dropping AA, some are experimenting with different amounts of BTB, and it seems some are now embracing KMeta.

What are you guys on the front lines doing and why?
User avatar
Ancient Abbey
German Brewing
Posts: 1191
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:23 pm

Re: The current thinking on Sulfites, G-Tannins, AA and scavenging

Postby Ancient Abbey » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:06 pm

Maybe you are thinking of the progression over at LOB?
- The best do the basics better -
User avatar
Weizenberg
German Brewing
Posts: 843
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:11 pm
Contact:

Re: The current thinking on Sulfites, G-Tannins, AA and scavenging

Postby Weizenberg » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:15 pm

In the early days i spent a lot of time translating texts from Narziß to the group in live chats.

There was a section in "Abriss" where it was mentioned that more than 10mgl of potassium is not desirable in the wort. It was from that moment on where everyone started switching to NaMeta.
The Quest for Edelstoff - http://edelstoffquest.wordpress.com
User avatar
Big Monk
Assistant Brewer
Posts: 282
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:29 am
Location: New York

Re: The current thinking on Sulfites, G-Tannins, AA and scavenging

Postby Big Monk » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:28 pm

Everyone seems to have a preference based on what they are brewing. SBT is a fixed ratio and the percentages seem to have spawned a DIY version using the available chemicals.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle

"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur

Check us out at www.lowoxygenbrewing.com
Techbrau
German Brewing
Posts: 409
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:45 pm

Re: The current thinking on Sulfites, G-Tannins, AA and scavenging

Postby Techbrau » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:58 pm

My opinion is that it's important to tune the treatment to the water source. If you have any potential for metals to come through in your source water then I think g-tannin will help you.

The best beers I've made so far used 30 mg/l each SMB + Brewtan B.
If you always do what you've always done, then you'll always get what you've always gotten.
User avatar
Cavpilot2000
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:00 am

Re: The current thinking on Sulfites, G-Tannins, AA and scavenging

Postby Cavpilot2000 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:07 am

Ancient Abbey wrote:Maybe you are thinking of the progression over at LOB?

It's possible that over there is where I saw the mix of SMB and PMB, but all the other stuff (starting with SMB then moving to Antioxin, then to home-made blends, and some dropping AA) is all on here.

I have a little Antioxin SBT coming my way, and I intend to use it, but I also ordered some BTB, so I will probably start blending my own.

I will finally have all SS for the first time for my upcoming brew this weekend (new SS immersion chiller and replacing the bronze ball valve on my MT with SS).
Sehr aufgeregt.
User avatar
Ancient Abbey
German Brewing
Posts: 1191
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:23 pm

Re: The current thinking on Sulfites, G-Tannins, AA and scavenging

Postby Ancient Abbey » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:53 am

We were testing SMB, AA and BB long before Antioxin SBT was presented here. Antiox C was the first "blend" explored, but it never took off. We first used AA in the finished beer, not the mash, and the results were not favorable. I began testing it in the mash and found it to be an effective compliment to SMB, especially when making ales. However, given differences in scavenging efficiencies between SMB and AA, they do not perform equally at the same concentration. So, different ratios were explored for different styles. I find using exclusively SMB, up to a 2:1 SMB:AA, is really nice for lagers. For ales, I like 2-3x more AA than SMB, just be watchful of the pH drop due to using AA. To me, BB use is constant regardless of style and the main decision is whether you want to add it to the mash, the boil or both.

Regardless of how or why, Antioxin SBT is probably a fine product, and is likely the best "all-in-one" product out there. Some claim that Antiox C and Antioxin SB are the same product, but the ratios of SMB to AA are not disclosed by Antiox C. The MSDS confirms they have the same chemicals though.

I will add, from personal experience, that you want to be very careful of your sulfate levels when using SMB, bc the yeast will generate sulfur dioxide from free sulfate. You can get a sulfur (matches) bomb even when only using 15-25mg/l of SMB.
- The best do the basics better -
User avatar
Cavpilot2000
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:00 am

Re: The current thinking on Sulfites, G-Tannins, AA and scavenging

Postby Cavpilot2000 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:45 am

Ancient Abbey wrote:We were testing SMB, AA and BB long before Antioxin SBT was presented here. Antiox C was the first "blend" explored, but it never took off. We first used AA in the finished beer, not the mash, and the results were not favorable. I began testing it in the mash and found it to be an effective compliment to SMB, especially when making ales. However, given differences in scavenging efficiencies between SMB and AA, they do not perform equally at the same concentration. So, different ratios were explored for different styles. I find using exclusively SMB, up to a 2:1 SMB:AA, is really nice for lagers. For ales, I like 2-3x more AA than SMB, just be watchful of the pH drop due to using AA. To me, BB use is constant regardless of style and the main decision is whether you want to add it to the mash, the boil or both.

Regardless of how or why, Antioxin SBT is probably a fine product, and is likely the best "all-in-one" product out there. Some claim that Antiox C and Antioxin SB are the same product, but the ratios of SMB to AA are not disclosed by Antiox C. The MSDS confirms they have the same chemicals though.

I will add, from personal experience, that you want to be very careful of your sulfate levels when using SMB, bc the yeast will generate sulfur dioxide from free sulfate. You can get a sulfur (matches) bomb even when only using 15-25mg/l of SMB.


Thanks! Tons of useful information.
My last batch (using only SMB) did get some sulfury compounds that are still noticeable as it approaches FG (it's spunding now), but it's a Pils, so it is more forgiving of sulfur. It's definitely not a sulfur bomb (not anymore - long story but it involved an ill-advised SMB addition during transfer meant to counteract an inadvertent air introduction in the transfer line).

However, I am doing a light Kellerbier this weekend, and sulfur will be less welcome. I'll watch out for sulfate. Any advice on doing so besides low amounts in mash water and avoiding gypsum?
User avatar
lupulus
Apprentice Brewer
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 8:35 pm

Re: The current thinking on Sulfites, G-Tannins, AA and scavenging

Postby lupulus » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:51 pm

Weizenberg wrote:In the early days i spent a lot of time translating texts from Narziß to the group in live chats.

There was a section in "Abriss" where it was mentioned that more than 10mgl of potassium is not desirable in the wort. It was from that moment on where everyone started switching to NaMeta.


An admittedly very late response to this comment. Anyone has more info on this? The Brewer's Handbook from Goldammer (Google search, I do not own the book) has the similar information, probably from the same source but expands that the issue is inhibition of "some" enzymes. The problem is that potassium concentration in the mash can be anywhere from 100mg/L to 500 mg/L (all coming from malted barley) per textbooks so how an extra 10 mg/L can have an effect is not clear.
It is possible that the referred enzymes are peptidases, and the context of the comment is that as little as 10mg/L can inhibit them; trying to make the point that these enzymes are not likely to be active in the mash given that potassium concentration will be much higher than 10mg/L but I would need to reach the source.
Ich trinke Bier nur an Tagen die mit G enden , und Mittwochs
User avatar
Weizenberg
German Brewing
Posts: 843
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:11 pm
Contact:

Re: The current thinking on Sulfites, G-Tannins, AA and scavenging

Postby Weizenberg » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:50 pm

I'll try and get you the exact quote and a copy of the page once I return from France.
The Quest for Edelstoff - http://edelstoffquest.wordpress.com

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest