Webinar on Hot Side Oxidation

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wobdee
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Re: Webinar on Hot Side Oxidation

Postby wobdee » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:17 pm

Thanks, looks like a strong Dunkel at 16P. Interesting take on steeping your roast malz. My last Dunkel I tried Sinimar for the first time instead of my usual carafa.
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Weizenberg
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Re: Webinar on Hot Side Oxidation

Postby Weizenberg » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:18 am

lupulus wrote:
I am at 600g sulfite and 600mg AA for 30L water and 1L of sauergut with 1.5g of tannins.


0.6kg of sulfites? Surely you meant 600mg ;)
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Re: Webinar on Hot Side Oxidation

Postby Weizenberg » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:24 am

lupulus wrote:If you do not pre-boil and do not flush the mash tun with nitrogen there is likely to be a lot of reactive oxygen at mash-in.


Indeed. I don't underlet and don't use mash caps either. Gentle recirculation where the top layer isn't disturbed is totally sufficient. Most damage appears to happen at dough-in.

I also mill in batches and never have the crushed grain lying around for long.

I tired HERMS lately but reverted back to the traditional setup because I didn't like the shortcomings. You probably need a mash cap with HERMS since it's a potential O2 mixer when things go wrong.
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Re: Webinar on Hot Side Oxidation

Postby lupulus » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:07 pm

Weizenberg wrote:
lupulus wrote:
I am at 600g sulfite and 600mg AA for 30L water and 1L of sauergut with 1.5g of tannins.


0.6kg of sulfites? Surely you meant 600mg ;)


mg indeed :-)
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Re: Webinar on Hot Side Oxidation

Postby Ancient Abbey » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:55 pm

lupulus wrote:Step Mash
52° for 10 min
63° for 30 min
72° for 30 min
78° for mash out, no rest

Interesting, thanks. Are you considering eliminating the low dough-in after the points you made regarding LOX?
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Re: Webinar on Hot Side Oxidation

Postby Weizenberg » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:05 pm

Abbey,

Bruehmalz has a slightly higher protein content, so a rest in the lower temps helps adjust that a bit (assuming this schedule is for the Dunkel)
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Re: Webinar on Hot Side Oxidation

Postby lupulus » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:59 pm

I do protein rests for almost all malts as above, 52'for 10 min. Only for Weyermann regular or Barke pils I do not do it. For W Bohemian and for Sekado Moravian malt, I do it or otherwise, I do not get good clarity. Rationale is per what Nico stated.
What I do adjust is that I do 60 min at 63 instead of 30 min for most malts. For my recirculation system, 30 min is not sufficient. Most German systems have mash mixers that speed up conversion quite a bit. I am pretty sure Nico only needs 30 min :-)
For low long do you need to stay at beta assuming you want full attenuation, Abbey?
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Re: Webinar on Hot Side Oxidation

Postby Weizenberg » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:41 am

One should only mash as long as necessary. I found that spending more than 40 minutes in beta range is pointless for me (agitated system). Spending substantial time in the higher ranges also didn't seem necessary.

You may notice that sometimes the malts don't quite hit the minimum spec for a Hochkurz dough-in. In those cases I often dough-in slightly lower (advice from Narziss) at 58C.

Often, a straight forward Helles mash looks like this for me

Dough-in 58-62C, max 15 minutes, usually in 3 milled batches with agitator running at ~20 RPM (slow)

62C / 20"
65C / 20"
70C / 20"
72C / 20"
75C out

As you can see, the time intervals aren't very laborious to set ;)

For wheat beers this is the same but with the exception that more work is done in the ferulic and proteolytic ranges and the pH a bit higher, usually around 5.6-5.8 for wheat beer.

Dough-in 38C
38C / 15"
50C / 10"
52C / 10"
55C / 10"
Then proceed like for Helles

Hope this helps.
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Re: Webinar on Hot Side Oxidation

Postby wobdee » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:03 am

What about FAN? Wouldn't a short time in a lower dough in temp say around 55c be beneficial for FAN?
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Re: Webinar on Hot Side Oxidation

Postby Techbrau » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:41 am

No, not if the malt is sufficiently modified to already have enough FAN.

There's no reason to dough in any lower than 62c if your Kolbach index is above 38 or so.

Doing so is more likely to decrease wort quality than increase it for the following reasons:

1. Excess FAN is actually going to increase wort darkening during the boil and contribute to reduced flavor stability

2. Well-modified malt already has enough FAN for the yeast, and providing them with more than they need will increase fusel alcohol production

3. The additional FAN produced from a low dough in has to come from somewhere, namely from breaking down medium chain, foam positive proteins.

4. Pretty much all oxidative enzymes in the mash (LOX, PPO, peroxidase) are much more active at protein rest temperatures than saccharification temperatures. Actually they're also far more active at beta rest temperatures than alpha, but doughing in high enough to denature them would also denature beta amylase so in a sense a Hochkurz mash is a compromise between fermentabilty and flavor stability

I rarely deviate from this mash:

30 min 64c
30 min 72c
5 min 76c

With this past year's barley crop I get a consistent 37-38 PPG extraction rate, and a 1.048 OG wort will have an attenuation limit of 1.008

If I had some malt and the above mash didn't work well with it, then I would get some better malt :P
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