Honey flavor

[Owenbräu]

I see conflicting reports on honey flavor, even between members on this forum, let alone with other sources. George Fix claimed 2,3-pentanedione is a natural yeast byproduct that likens to honey and is part of the VDK complex. Several have claimed that honey flavor is a product of oxidation and staling of finished beer. Many German maltsters pride themselves on producing honey flavors and aromas in some of their malts. Some here have written that honey flavor is wrong for a German helles, and some here have written that you must use certain malts to ensure you get that honey flavor. I totally get that all these conversations and postings happened over time, and we learn as we go. However, I am curious what the consensus is now....

Is honey part of the flavor profile of a great German helles? Do we strive to produce it, or avoid it?

[Bryan R]

Honey in wort, no honey in beer.

[Kit_B]

There is a distinct difference between the honey flavors of old, crappy, poorly treated beer that tastes stale & a fresh flavor that is honey-like, due to its resemblance to a field of flowers & grain.
We are talking about 2 different flavors & situations.
Unfortunately, we have not been able to easily put our definitions into words.

[Owenbräu]

Are we talking about the same chemical compound for honey, just in different malt contexts. That is, the honey is always the same, but the malt may be fresh and aromatic vs old and stale. Or, are there multiple compounds that we detect as honey?

[Kit_B]

I'm not a chemist of any kind & I don't know what all the compounds are that mimic a honey-like flavor.
But, I know the difference between the fresh honey-like flavor & aroma that I get in really, really good wort & the crappy honey that I get from a poorly treated bottle of helles.
The only real way to fully understand what I'm saying is to physically compare those 2.

[Bryan R]

Malto-meal and honey, maybe wildflower honey when hops are present(grain dependent). Fresh grain in finished beer.

[Roachbrau]

The good honey starts strong and fades away over time. The bad honey doesn't appear until the finished product, and grows stronger with time. I don't know much about chemistry, or whether the same compound is responsible, but that's the difference to me.

I think good honey is just some form of malt sugar. Bad honey is the product of oxidation. Good honey is elusive and desirable, bad honey is a symptom of poor handling or age.

[Brandon]

[Weizenberg]

Germans visiting Bavaria always comment positively how fresh the beer is.

Surprisingly, there is a lot of room for manoeuvre with Bavarian Helles as far as flavour development goes.

The most boring example of this style is the Munich type. Venturing further into Oberbayern or taking the plunge into Niederbayern you'll get to see hugely interesting- and much better tasting examples

Must be difficult to make something which is very far away and not easy to come by.

[Owenbräu]