Sauregut

Discuss malts, hops, and yeast, not related to a specific recipe

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zwiller
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Re: Sauregut

Postby zwiller » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:55 am

Thanks for testing!

I know the data is forthcoming but I am hoping we can eventually use SG as both redox agent AND pH reduction instead of using acid malt and the SMB but we have to start somewhere... Eliminates the yeast/bacteria and SMB concern too. Might have to do 2 generations and skip SMB to start first generation but 2nd generation results might really be worth all the fuss.
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Nick_D
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Re: Sauregut

Postby Nick_D » Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:42 am

Bilsch wrote:Three days ago I started another sauergut test. This time the goal was to see if I could improve the quality by inoculating the new batch with previously made SG as opposed to using grains as the culture starter.
The process began with making a ~1gal wort with 2-row and acid malt for a mash pH of ~5.2 similar to previous runs however this time I employed low oxygen mashing by pre-boiling the water and adding 25mg/l NaMeta. Another difference was no boiling and simply drained grain off the wort at 77c, cooled to 47 and split into 1 qt canning jars. I then inoculated each jar with 150ml sauergut which brought the pH in each jar down to 4.45. I then topped off to almost zero headspace, and put in a water bath at 48c for 60 hours.
This morning I pulled out the jars and opened one to see how things proceeded and the pH was about 4.4, very strange. And so I went to do some research on sulfites and lactobacillus and it seems that takes as little as 1.5mg/l SO2 to discourage many strains from reproducing.
I'm wondering if LO oxygen wort, containing any free SO2, is a bad thing for making sauergut?


Bilsch, I did the same thing as you, inoculating my new batch with my previous batch. Was no sparge mash, 50mg/L SMB. My efficiency wasn't quite as high as I was expecting, so I did a 15 min boil to get down to my desired gravity (1.043, was 1.039). Inoculated with approx 100ml saurgut for 1.5 liters to reach approx 4.5 PH. My experience was the opposite. In the morning, it had clear signs of activity, and the PH dropped to 3.5 ish (as read by strips) in 2 days.

Notable differences were I boiled, and also as I was mashing in a hop sock, I prodded and poked the mash a lot, no doubt using up much of my sulfites by carelessly adding oxygen. But the idea of inoculating with a previous batch worked really well for me. Also, I had a brain fade, and did not purge my jars of O2, or seal them whilst they 'cooked'. Hopefully this is helpful !
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Bilsch
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Re: Sauregut

Postby Bilsch » Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:17 pm

This is all very interesting to be sure.
It is possible that the lacto in the sauergut I used to inoculate the new batch was deceased however I doubt that. It was stored immediately after making at a constant 2c in the dark. My gut feeling (pun intended) was the sulfites did them in.

That begs the question.. why would low oxygen wort be necessary to make sauergut anyway. Even if there was a total loss of fresh malt flavor in the SG batch would that really matter?
caedus
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Re: Sauregut

Postby caedus » Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:51 pm

So I've been thinking: is lacto's oxygen uptake comparable to yeast? I'm curious as to how effective it would be to pitch some dextrose/dme and a small amount of lacto culture into the strike water the night previous. Omega labs has a lacto strain that ferments happily at 21* Celsius, so with a little planning and forethought you could drop the pH, get some sauergut flavor, and de-oxy all at the same time.
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Bilsch
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Re: Sauregut

Postby Bilsch » Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:42 pm

If lactobacillus was capable of scavenging oxygen with any appreciable rate would not a traditional long acid rest have worked to reduce DO levels of the mash? And if so, shouldn't employing that process have created beers with noticeably better malt freshness?

That makes me wonder if it's feasible to mash in at say ~35c with a dose of active yeast. There should be adequate malt sugars present from malting of the grain to fuel the yeast to reduce the DO of the whole lot to less than ~0.3ppm oxygen pretty quickly. Then heat the batch to beta rest without the same liability to oxidation you get while mixing in the grains at higher temperatures. Could this be a more Reinheitsgebot friendly way than using Nameta or just even allowing a much lower dose. Or maybe doughing in with yeast in a thicker mash around 35c, resting for 30 to 60 min to lower the DO then infusing with boiling water to beta range.

Just thinking out loud.
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Ancient Abbey
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Re: Sauregut

Postby Ancient Abbey » Fri Nov 04, 2016 7:01 pm

Bilsch wrote:If lactobacillus was capable of scavenging oxygen with any appreciable rate would not a traditional long acid rest have worked to reduce DO levels of the mash? And if so, shouldn't employing that process have created beers with noticeably better malt freshness?

That makes me wonder if it's feasible to mash in at say ~35c with a dose of active yeast. There should be adequate malt sugars present from malting of the grain to fuel the yeast to reduce the DO of the whole lot to less than ~0.3ppm oxygen pretty quickly. Then heat the batch to beta rest without the same liability to oxidation you get while mixing in the grains at higher temperatures. Could this be a more Reinheitsgebot friendly way than using Nameta or just even allowing a much lower dose. Or maybe doughing in with yeast in a thicker mash around 35c, resting for 30 to 60 min to lower the DO then infusing with boiling water to beta range.

Just thinking out loud.


Early on, this was our thinking. It was the mash profile we got from Claudius Budde. It's called the CB mash if you search for it on here. Maybe we need to re-investigate it with SG additions ;)
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TheHairyHop
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Re: Sauregut

Postby TheHairyHop » Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:30 am

Ancient Abbey wrote:
Bilsch wrote:If lactobacillus was capable of scavenging oxygen with any appreciable rate would not a traditional long acid rest have worked to reduce DO levels of the mash? And if so, shouldn't employing that process have created beers with noticeably better malt freshness?

That makes me wonder if it's feasible to mash in at say ~35c with a dose of active yeast. There should be adequate malt sugars present from malting of the grain to fuel the yeast to reduce the DO of the whole lot to less than ~0.3ppm oxygen pretty quickly. Then heat the batch to beta rest without the same liability to oxidation you get while mixing in the grains at higher temperatures. Could this be a more Reinheitsgebot friendly way than using Nameta or just even allowing a much lower dose. Or maybe doughing in with yeast in a thicker mash around 35c, resting for 30 to 60 min to lower the DO then infusing with boiling water to beta range.

Just thinking out loud.


Early on, this was our thinking. It was the mash profile we got from Claudius Budde. It's called the CB mash if you search for it on here. Maybe we need to re-investigate it with SG additions ;)

I was considering doing a similar thing with single vessel BIAB. Dough in cold with yeast and some added sugar, bring to desired mash Temps. I was wondering about not over shooting Temps.
zwiller
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Re: Sauregut

Postby zwiller » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:17 am

Ancient Abbey wrote:
Bilsch wrote:If lactobacillus was capable of scavenging oxygen with any appreciable rate would not a traditional long acid rest have worked to reduce DO levels of the mash? And if so, shouldn't employing that process have created beers with noticeably better malt freshness?

That makes me wonder if it's feasible to mash in at say ~35c with a dose of active yeast. There should be adequate malt sugars present from malting of the grain to fuel the yeast to reduce the DO of the whole lot to less than ~0.3ppm oxygen pretty quickly. Then heat the batch to beta rest without the same liability to oxidation you get while mixing in the grains at higher temperatures. Could this be a more Reinheitsgebot friendly way than using Nameta or just even allowing a much lower dose. Or maybe doughing in with yeast in a thicker mash around 35c, resting for 30 to 60 min to lower the DO then infusing with boiling water to beta range.

Just thinking out loud.


Early on, this was our thinking. It was the mash profile we got from Claudius Budde. It's called the CB mash if you search for it on here. Maybe we need to re-investigate it with SG additions ;)


Heck yeah! I am a little excited since lacto is also more tolerant to higher temps to boot. I think it's possible that lacto might remain alive and active throughout most or all of the entire mashing/sparging/lautering process thus maintaining active redox until boil. I just read some cites that lacto lives well up to 75c. Coincidence?
bjanat
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Re: Sauregut

Postby bjanat » Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:58 pm

The one I made three days ago went well below 3.5, according to the ph-strip, kept it at 45C. Made some more wort, with DME due to lack of time, and fed some of the first one to the bottle.

Making a NE IPA right now, with dough-in at 40C with bread yeast and sugar, added boiling water with SMB to raise to 62C after 10min. Adjusted ph with 4:1 CaCl to gypsum, and about 3% SG. The wort tastes really good, I'm inclined to believe it makes a difference. ImageImage


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TheHairyHop
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Re: Sauregut

Postby TheHairyHop » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:34 pm

bjanat wrote:The one I made three days ago went well below 3.5, according to the ph-strip, kept it at 45C. Made some more wort, with DME due to lack of time, and fed some of the first one to the bottle.

Making a NE IPA right now, with dough-in at 40C with bread yeast and sugar, added boiling water with SMB to raise to 62C after 10min. Adjusted ph with 4:1 CaCl to gypsum, and about 3% SG. The wort tastes really good, I'm inclined to believe it makes a difference.


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be sure to report on you results! I've been trying to apply the cold side LODO techniques to my NEIPAs. It's certainly made a difference

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