Kunze - "Whole Grain Conditioning" and "Steep Conditioning"

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caedus
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Kunze - "Whole Grain Conditioning" and "Steep Conditioning"

Postby caedus » Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:02 pm

Hey guys, I was able to borrow a copy of Kunze and I found these methods (I paraphrased some things):

Steep conditioning:
During steep conditioning, use is made of the advantages of wet milling in that the malt is introduced for 50-60 seconds to 60L/100kg malt at 60-80C. In this short time only the husk is able to take up water and to increase the water content to 18-22% and will become more elastic.

Here is where I get a little confused - he says "the same amount of water remains stuck to the grain (15L/100kg malt), whereas the surplus amounting to 20-30L is drained off." I am assuming that when we says "stuck" that it means that the water is left in with the grains when being delivered to the mill.

Whole Grain Conditioning

Another method to prevent the acrospire from damage is whole grain conditioning. The water content of the malt is hereby increased incrementally to 12% before milling, thus increasing the elasticity of the husk. As a result no damage to the acrospire occurs during [milling], and this thereis...considerably reduced release of lipids.

Has anyone tried this (looking at you Bryan). Seems like more elasticity in the malt would be preferred, and I would imagine that reducing LOX activity can only help us.
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Re: Kunze - "Whole Grain Conditioning" and "Steep Conditioning"

Postby Weizenberg » Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:37 pm

I condition my grain with water at 80C. However, wet milling is beyond a home brew setup and capabilities. So one needs to find the sensible compromise.
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Re: Kunze - "Whole Grain Conditioning" and "Steep Conditioning"

Postby caedus » Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:50 pm

Do you do the 60L/100kg ratio like Kunze references? I am just trying to find if there is a better method than spraying down the grain with 2% total weight in water.
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Re: Kunze - "Whole Grain Conditioning" and "Steep Conditioning"

Postby Weizenberg » Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:07 pm

caedus wrote:Do you do the 60L/100kg ratio like Kunze references? I am just trying to find if there is a better method than spraying down the grain with 2% total weight in water.


I have the malt in a bag (old malt bags are a-plenty in my premises)

Then I weigh the water and literally pour it in.

Its dead easy to mix this way. Usually I have the malt flattened to it's easier to pour.

Works just as good as spraying and is far more convenient.

2-2.5% of water per volume of malt
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Re: Kunze - "Whole Grain Conditioning" and "Steep Conditioning"

Postby Big Monk » Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:20 pm

Weizenberg wrote:I condition my grain with water at 80C. However, wet milling is beyond a home brew setup and capabilities. So one needs to find the sensible compromise.


Have you had a chance to measure the grain temp after you condition? A while back Bryan had tested a few of the different methods from Kunze including the steep and the steam condition, and while the steam seemed to provide a more even heat and moisture spread, it didn't seem to actually get the grain to a higher enough temp.
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Re: Kunze -

Postby Weizenberg » Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:08 am

Big Monk wrote:
Weizenberg wrote:I condition my grain with water at 80C. However, wet milling is beyond a home brew setup and capabilities. So one needs to find the sensible compromise.


Have you had a chance to measure the grain temp after you condition? A while back Bryan had tested a few of the different methods from Kunze including the steep and the steam condition, and while the steam seemed to provide a more even heat and moisture spread, it didn't seem to actually get the grain to a higher enough temp.


It depends on one's understanding why this is done.

You don't want the grain to go to 80C.
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Big Monk
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Re: Kunze - "Whole Grain Conditioning" and "Steep Conditioning"

Postby Big Monk » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:00 am

Weizenberg wrote:
Big Monk wrote:
Weizenberg wrote:I condition my grain with water at 80C. However, wet milling is beyond a home brew setup and capabilities. So one needs to find the sensible compromise.


Have you had a chance to measure the grain temp after you condition? A while back Bryan had tested a few of the different methods from Kunze including the steep and the steam condition, and while the steam seemed to provide a more even heat and moisture spread, it didn't seem to actually get the grain to a higher enough temp.


It depends on one's understanding why this is done.

You don't want the grain to go to 80C.


Is the conditioning water hot enough, and does it penetrate the husk enough, to neutralize the LOX or are you doing it for a different reason?
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Re: Kunze - "Whole Grain Conditioning" and "Steep Conditioning"

Postby Weizenberg » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:01 am

Naturally, there is a temperature drop. Narziss pretty much recommends the water at 80C when it's sprayed.

The best method for my purposes is known as "Weichkonditionierung", I guess that would translate to steep conditioning? This is the only method that will properly inhibit LOX. If you just spray it on, then the water might just as well be of a much lower temperature. It won't be effective enough.

Unfortunately I have no means to analyse LOX in grain. If Bryan or you have these facilities, then I'd be very interested to hear what data you compiled.
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Re: Kunze - "Whole Grain Conditioning" and "Steep Conditioning"

Postby Big Monk » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:45 am

Weizenberg wrote:Naturally, there is a temperature drop. Narziss pretty much recommends the water at 80C when it's sprayed.

The best method for my purposes is known as "Weichkonditionierung", I guess that would translate to steep conditioning? This is the only method that will properly inhibit LOX. If you just spray it on, then the water might just as well be of a much lower temperature. It won't be effective enough.

Unfortunately I have no means to analyse LOX in grain. If Bryan or you have these facilities, then I'd be very interested to hear what data you compiled.


Unfortunately we don't.

Bryan tried steam which gave even heating and moisture but the temp didn't approach 80 °C at the grain.

Steeping was a bit sloppy, at least in trials in Bryan's brewery. I'd have to check but I think Bryan might still be steaming which is what I'm set up for as well.
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Re: Kunze - "Whole Grain Conditioning" and "Steep Conditioning"

Postby Bryan R » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:31 am

No, I just went back to regular water and a co2 purged grist.

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