Experiences and issues with low O2 process

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Brandon
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Re: Experiences and issues with low O2 process

Postby Brandon » Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:40 pm

Agreed, gelatin is the last thing needed in beer. I used it once and it added no value. I've tried filtering as well, and that accomplished nothing. diatomaceous earth filter at .8 micron or whatever it was we decided was the right size, maybe if I needed a filtered beer. I know Claudius filters his beers, but I just don't have the setup to go through all that and prevent oxidation.
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Brody
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Re: Experiences and issues with low O2 process

Postby Brody » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:34 am

Fair enough, all good points. Thought was to drop out all the yeast, haze, and whatnot asap after fermentation to simulate commercial breweries filtering and not have a gap in the taps. I have 2 chest freezers - I tend to kick the 2 taps in about a month. So if I have a 2 month turnaround for beers I'll have a month gap on the taps.

If I had one of those sweet walk in freezers like Ancient Abbey it would really be a non-issue!
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Re: Experiences and issues with low O2 process

Postby Brandon » Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:30 am

Brody wrote:Fair enough, all good points. Thought was to drop out all the yeast, haze, and whatnot asap after fermentation to simulate commercial breweries filtering and not have a gap in the taps. I have 2 chest freezers - I tend to kick the 2 taps in about a month. So if I have a 2 month turnaround for beers I'll have a month gap on the taps.

If I had one of those sweet walk in freezers like Ancient Abbey it would really be a non-issue!


Yeah, I envy that freezer, too. That would solve a world of issues, wouldn't it? :)

I've been seeing my beers clear up pretty fast. But I've been using WLP802 which has dropped out nicely for me. I've just switched strains to Wyeast 2124, so we'll see how that compares. I find Gelatin robs flavor (on my limited attempts using it...certainly YMMV), and at the rate I consume beer I generally have inventory so am in no rush. Now the race to it retain super freshness.

My ideal would be a way to fully purge oxygen from a filter and use .8 micron pads...or a diatomaceous earth filter like they use in German breweries. I've talked to some local guys about designing one (DE filter) and we kinda came to the conclusion that it would be a mess.

I've also discussed with Claudius about something similar to what he does, and I have several sets of these plates that I could chain together.

http://s238.photobucket.com/user/ClaudiusB/media/Beer%20filter/Beer_Filter_Top.jpg.html?sort=3&o=5

All that said, I'm coming in right around a comfortable clarity for beer served vom Fass.
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Re: Experiences and issues with low O2 process

Postby mchrispen » Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:58 pm

I have played a bit with filtering, both for mead and beer. A 10 inch filter body works well, but you need to be careful about your filter selection. Sparging the filter and cartridge with CO2 isn't adequate, and you usually will need to run some pure water through it anyway to remove any of the possible flavors from the filter material. This also works to eliminate any trapped air, fully hydrate the filter before your beer touches and confirm any leaks. I prefer a reusable absolute filter of 0.5u, which will will also filter most of the yeast, and will definitely affect your flavor profile. I'll try to post links to the actual filter cartridge. I bought mine at a commercial wine supplier. The reusable can be cleaned by back flushing most of the large stuff, followed with a strong rinse under running water and stored, or then boiled or autoclaved for sterility. I always recommend installing an inline ball valve on the output side of the filter body. It helps to hold pressure on the filter between keg swaps and prevents excess CO2 escaping (bubbling) into the receiving keg.

Caveat: I only use this for competition and try to compensate for the flavor reduction with a bit more malt flavor and much more hop flavors. That is always a dance. A filter will do far more potential damage to a beer that it will to a wine or a mead. Managing oxygenation and clearing any possible flavor from the filter media is key.

A proposed LODO filtering method:

  • 1. Assemble the filter housing and cartridge, but keep the top loose. Note the flow direction indicated on the top of the housing, usually with an arrow.
  • 2. Flush the entire assembly with SaniClean or StarSan solution, letting the solution to run out of the housing at the threads. I keep a mini-keg around with sanitizer and will push this with CO2 at about 3 PSI. Of course, no QD on the output. Collect at least 2-3 pints of solution, and dunk your QDs in it. This should minimize sanitation concerns assuming you keep the filter kit very clean. Use this solution to clean all of the posts on your kegs.
  • 3. (The LODO step) Swap to a keg of DO water, and push this through the filter, purging the sanitizer solution and checking for bubbles gathering (I would only recommend a clear housing because of this). The DO water could possibly be dosed with MBS as a precaution. I will run at least a quart out. If you see bubbles, open the housing to let the air escape - it can build in the turbulent space at the top of the filter. Tighten up while liquid if flowing through the threads.
  • 4. Be careful to keep as much water in the outlet hose, add the QD and tighten. Then run the pressure up on the DO water, and look for leaks. 10 PSI should be adequate. Tighten up all of the connections.
  • 5. Connect the beer source keg and add pressure, just 3-5 PSI, but no more than 5 PSI. With a sanitary hand, hold the filter output's QD over a sink and depress the pin underneath, letting the water flow out. Purge the water until you have beer flowing. You could also just let the water pass into the receiving keg if you don't mind the dilution.
  • 6. Connect a fully CO2 purged keg (and properly seated lid) using the serving post and release the keg pressure. A spund valve would allow you to lower the pressure to match the source keg, and transfer with fine control while keeping positive pressure output, preventing any air suck back. An open QD could also work, but should be removed to prevent the pressure differential from sucking air back into the receiving keg during keg swaps.
  • 7. At 3-5 PSI, you should see a very gentle flow through the filter body with little turbulence. Some CO2 will come out of solution - but shouldn't be a problem. You may need to slowly raise the pressure as the filter is saturated, but don't exceed the rated pressure of the filter cartridge. At the first sign of CO2 escape from the source keg (it will burp or chug), disconnect the QD or close the filter ball valve. Remove the gas QD (and spund) from the receiving keg to seal in the residual pressure.
  • 8. Swap out additional kegs if needed.

To clean, connect the filter backwards (against the arrows), and push sanitation solution through the filter, QD removed. This should flush the majority of the yeast and trub back out of the filter body. When the solution runs clear, stop. Remove all the QDs, clean, sanitize and store. Disassemble the filter assembly and set the filter cartridge into the sanitizer solution. Fully clean the housing, rinse well and dry. Hoses should be hung vertically and allowed to drip completely dry before storage.

If using a disposable or one use filter (which I cannot recommend), then just toss it.

The reusable cartridge can then be rinsed and examined for any residual gunk. Mine get a strong spray under tap water, drained and then saturated with sanitation solution. I then fully wrap this in plastic wrap and store in a spare fridge. Before use, I either boil the filter for 15 minutes or will occasionally pressure cook it. I typically get 20-25 kegs filtered before the filter shows signs of failure. However, that is with a lot of care and gentle cleaning. It will simply become less effective and prone to plugging up before you need to replace it.

EDIT: http://www.stpats.com/index.htm - they carry PES and PP cartridges of high quality. I had to dig around before finally asking my LHBS if they would order a set for me. I got them at a much better price than @stpats, and compared to the yarn wound disposables, the value is great. I have seen the 1u wound filter cartridges as high as $7.99 and as low as $3.99, but a single use, and not as effective. I would suggest starting with a 1u absolute filter, and if that is not good enough, then moving to a 0.5/0.45u for the final polish.
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narcout
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Re: Experiences and issues with low O2 process

Postby narcout » Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:25 am

I use the same fermentor as Bryan R, but I attached a gas in post to a stopper so I can rack under a bit of CO2 pressure. When cold conditioning ales, I also pump in a bit of CO2 to prevent air ingress during cooling.

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Re: Experiences and issues with low O2 process

Postby Ancient Abbey » Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:30 am

I like that fitting. I may have to adapt that to my brew buckets ;)
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Re: Experiences and issues with low O2 process

Postby narcout » Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:56 am

These are the parts I used:

http://www.homebrewing.org/SS-14-MFL-x- ... _3607.html

http://www.amazon.com/Corny-Plug-Adapte ... B004I855H8

http://www.northernbrewer.com/plug-asse ... -ball-lock

The hole in the pre-drilled #2 stopped was too large for the 1/4" barb, so I bought a solid stopped and drilled a smaller hole myself.
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Re: Experiences and issues with low O2 process

Postby jddevinn » Wed May 25, 2016 4:17 pm

I've been transferring to "brite" tanks (kegs modified with CO2 stones) using a closed transfer to "purged" (filled with sanitizer and then emptied with a CO2 push) for a while. After the beer is carbonated I then closed transfer to another "purged" keg for serving. This allows sediment to drop out twice and I get perfectly clear beer, the keg can be moved and the beer is still clear.

I'm looking to implement the low oxygen brewing and believe I can make all the hot side adjustments fairly easily. However, I do not want to get rid of by "brite" tank procedure and move to a spudding setup. I know that even "purging" the kegs as I do leaves quite a bit of oxygen in the lid of the corny due to the physical design of the kegs.

My question here is has anyone used a combination steam/inert gas process for purging kegs such as what commercial keg cleaners use? I'm thinking of a steam source such as what Yuri_Rage http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=27070&highlight=steam used back in the day for steam infusion mashing (god that O2 uptake must be crazy!!! :cry: ) as a sanitizer and to push the air out of the keg, then slight (1psi or so) CO2 pressure to prevent a vacuum from forming when the steam condenses.
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Brandon
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Re: Experiences and issues with low O2 process

Postby Brandon » Wed May 25, 2016 4:26 pm

jddevinn wrote:I've been transferring to "brite" tanks (kegs modified with CO2 stones) using a closed transfer to "purged" (filled with sanitizer and then emptied with a CO2 push) for a while. After the beer is carbonated I then closed transfer to another "purged" keg for serving. This allows sediment to drop out twice and I get perfectly clear beer, the keg can be moved and the beer is still clear.

I'm looking to implement the low oxygen brewing and believe I can make all the hot side adjustments fairly easily. However, I do not want to get rid of by "brite" tank procedure and move to a spudding setup. I know that even "purging" the kegs as I do leaves quite a bit of oxygen in the lid of the corny due to the physical design of the kegs.

My question here is has anyone used a combination steam/inert gas process for purging kegs such as what commercial keg cleaners use? I'm thinking of a steam source such as what Yuri_Rage http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=27070&highlight=steam used back in the day for steam infusion mashing (god that O2 uptake must be crazy!!! :cry: ) as a sanitizer and to push the air out of the keg, then slight (1psi or so) CO2 pressure to prevent a vacuum from forming when the steam condenses.


Nice thread, this one too. http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=18008

Steam-heating mash would be an effective way to do lodo. There's been some discussion among several of the team about this.
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Re: Experiences and issues with low O2 process

Postby Techbrau » Wed May 25, 2016 4:35 pm

It might be possible for you to do a steam purge on your final serving keg and get super low oxygen levels. It's worth looking into.

I would suggest moving to spunding to carbonate though. The food grade CO2 you're likely using isn't pure and typically contains approx 30 ppm oxygen, which will by itself introduce 0.15 ppm DO in your finished beer at a standard 2.5 volumes carbonation level.
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