I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Infusion, Decoction, Step, etc

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Bryan R
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby Bryan R » Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:39 pm

Ok.. Where to start...

Oh yea, have you tried it? So much debate over hypothetical nothings.

Tri-clad bottoms help with scorching, my decoctions are with a PID controlled induction cooker.

Add 24ppm to your next beer. Hell tincture one in the glass now.. Does it get magical?

Competitions are far from the proper data points, but if you so choose, ask Ancient about his medals with lowdo beer. He basically just swept a whole competition.

Oxidation is about temperature and saturation, but wet milling and spritzing with SMB to condition is not out of the question.

If you are so hard pressed on data points I urge you to try the method outlined and bring your findings back here. You are missing the forest for the trees.
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Ancient Abbey
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby Ancient Abbey » Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:59 pm

uberg33k wrote:
ajk wrote: totally get why you'd want to condition the grain for a better crush, but if you're aerosolizing water, that's going to highly oxygenate it. You're now spreading that highly oxygenated water onto your grain and running it through a mill, which in a sense, is aerosolizing the grain. Does O2 not play a part in this step? When does the addition of O2 to the process become a detriment?

I add SMB to the RO in the spray bottle. Try it with both water and water with SMB. You'll notice a big difference in how aromatic the malt becomes.
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby Kit_B » Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:13 pm

uberg33k wrote:1. How much of an improvement are we talking about here?


Taste is subjective, right?
The improvement is larger than I am able to adequately quantify, objectively.
Any further opinion I give you can easily be refuted.
So, I would urge you to try the practice laid out in the paper, or the small mash test & see what you think.
While the test won't give you a finished product, some results should be apparent.

uberg33k wrote:2. So, about that water chemistry kick ...


I will say that equal levels of sodium from sources like canning salt, or baking soda do not yield results that are anywhere in the ballpark of the reduction in available oxygen via sodium metabisulfite creates.
I urge you to try it, for yourself.

uberg33k wrote:...conditioning and milling of grain. I totally get why you'd want to condition the grain for a better crush, but if you're aerosolizing water, that's going to highly oxygenate it.


I may be incorrect in this, but I believe when conditioning the malt, the husk serves to help protect against oxidation, much in the same manner that an apple's skin protects the inner flesh.

Essentially, we feel that the steps in the outline improve the finished product.
Will you feel that way?
I have no way of knowing.
Only you can be the judge of what satisfies your own palate.
The outline is simply a way to help you minimize the oxidative damage done to what we consider precious ingredients.
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ajk
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby ajk » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:42 pm

uberg33k wrote:
ajk wrote:I decoct on an induction stove. No stirring required. (I know, that's cheating.


Wait, what? How does that work? Heat is heat. There's not special magic that I can think of that prevents induction pots from scorching, unless I'm missing something here. Tell me more about how this setup works...


An induction stove uses an alternating magnetic field to induce tiny, lossy currents in the cookware. So the heat is extremely well distributed, and there are no hot spots. It's the hot spots (especially with gas) that cause scorching.

But I got you sidetracked—you were asking about the paper, and induction isn't part of that.

uberg33k wrote:
ajk wrote:It's only 24 ppm, which shouldn't be enough to impact flavor negatively, even in a light beer. (Source: Martin Brungard)


You're misunderstanding my meaning. I'm saying it would have a positive effect on flavor perception, not a negative one. Sodium at low levels will boost the perception of sweetness. Think of salted caramel and the like. Perhaps the shift that's being observed here isn't a result of low O2, but the effect of a change in water chemistry.

Ah, right. Yes, I do think this level of sodium does improve flavor.
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Roachbrau
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby Roachbrau » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:07 pm

How much of an impact does it make? It's night and day. That's why all who have experienced it are advocating for the mini mash test if you want the proof. Seriously, just try it.

Ya know how your wort tastes like wort? This will not. It will taste like pure, clean, sweet, unadulterated sugar, with all the lovely malt flavors on top of it. A helles will taste like honey and breakfast cereal, none of that weird husky bitter flavor that every one of us has always tasted in every other wort we made for years. This is pure sweetness. Try it
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby uberg33k » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:04 pm

Bryan R wrote:Competitions are far from the proper data points, but if you so choose, ask Ancient about his medals with lowdo beer. He basically just swept a whole competition.


I think this would be really interesting to compare judges comments before and after implementing these techniques. You're absolutely right about it being subjective, but I think it helps people get their head around it. I saw in this forum and it might have been you that said it that it's possible to make a really good oxidized beer and have people love that beer. What if you have people out there that like that flavor? What if they're sensory blind to the difference? I think building a good vocabulary around what you can and cannot achieve with this methodology helps people make decisions on whether this is for them or not.

Ancient Abbey wrote:I add SMB to the RO in the spray bottle. Try it with both water and water with SMB. You'll notice a big difference in how aromatic the malt becomes.


Ah, that makes a bit more sense then.

Roachbrau wrote:Ya know how your wort tastes like wort? This will not. It will taste like pure, clean, sweet, unadulterated sugar, with all the lovely malt flavors on top of it. A helles will taste like honey and breakfast cereal, none of that weird husky bitter flavor that every one of us has always tasted in every other wort we made for years. This is pure sweetness. Try it

See, this is a good start. This starts to build that vocabulary I'm talking about and not just "it's better". Yes, it still is very subjective, but it helps. I mean, all flavor is subjective, but when someone says "pilsner malt" you'll find people generally using the same flavor descriptors to describe it to people who may not be familiar with it. It should be possible to come up with something similar to describe this method other than "better" or "cleaner". It would be really interesting to see if the before and after descriptors change for different beer styles (ie, the changes seen in Helles are different than the changes seen in a Marzen). That post showing the difference in extract colors is also informative, but it seems the boiled sample is darker than the control, which isn't exactly what one would expect.

And don't worry, I will try it. I just like knowing what I'm getting into rather than just blazing ahead.
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby Kit_B » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:11 pm

uberg33k wrote:
I think this would be really interesting to compare judges comments before and after implementing these techniques. You're absolutely right about it being subjective, but I think it helps people get their head around it. I saw in this forum and it might have been you that said it that it's possible to make a really good oxidized beer and have people love that beer. What if you have people out there that like that flavor? What if they're sensory blind to the difference? I think building a good vocabulary around what you can and cannot achieve with this methodology helps people make decisions on whether this is for them or not.


It's funny that you mention that...
In a recent podcast, Charlie Bamforth actually mentioned that when he was doing tests on oxidation, many of the tasters prefer the oxidized beer.
Personally, I'd like to believe that I would not...
But, he didn't mention recipes used or style of beer, so who knows what was actually done, in that study.

Maybe some beers are better, when the flavor is muted or degraded...I dunno.
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby Bryan R » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:14 pm

I always taste maltomeal(the hot breakfast cereal in vanilla flavor) and fresh honey. Oh, and angels and heaven.
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Roachbrau
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby Roachbrau » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:30 pm

Bryan R wrote:I always taste maltomeal(the hot breakfast cereal in vanilla flavor) and fresh honey. Oh, and angels and heaven.

Hah, that too, of course.

The distinguishing factor to me is the sweetness. I mean, let's think about it, preboil unhopped wort is 10-12% sugar by weight. Mix up a sugar water solution to the same strength as your wort. Does the wort taste as sweet as the sugar water? Mine never did. It was always kinda bitter, with that weird, muddy "wort flavor."

With low o2, all of that changes. Oxidation is what dulls that sweet flavor of the raw grain and sugar. We're not sure just what is responsible for that fresh malt flavor we refer to as "it", but when it is untarnished by oxidation, the difference is mind blowing
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby uberg33k » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:32 pm

Kit_B wrote:
It's funny that you mention that...
In a recent podcast, Charlie Bamforth actually mentioned that when he was doing tests on oxidation, many of the tasters prefer the oxidized beer.
Personally, I'd like to believe that I would not...
But, he didn't mention recipes used or style of beer, so who knows what was actually done, in that study.

Maybe some beers are better, when the flavor is muted or degraded...I dunno.

Think about English styles for a minute and the methodology CAMRA advocates for "real ale". It's all based on micro oxidation of air breathing casks and the cellarmanship to balance the flavors that develop from that. If you've ever had a good Mild from a naturally breathing firkin/beer engine combo, it is better than a forced carbed Mild because it makes those fruity English esters really pop, but in a most pleasant and mellow way. If that's what you like, then low oxygen brewing is pretty much the last thing you want. I would guess any English style or derivative would suffer from it, but that would be an interesting set of experiments. That's why I think it would be good to evolve into "Low oxygen brewing is suited for _____, and you will see the following characteristics enhanced such as ______ and the following characteristic diminished such as _____" . If that can eventually be followed up with objective measurements, then all the better.

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