I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Infusion, Decoction, Step, etc

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caedus
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby caedus » Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:04 pm

How do you measure the ppm/hour?

I have the exact same set up now, but don't want to go over.
Techbrau
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby Techbrau » Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:12 pm

You take a batch of degassed water or wort, measure the DO level, run the pump for an hour, and then measure the DO level again.
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby Brandon » Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:14 pm

I do it in spurts, because I'm using pure O2. Techbrau's is likely more accurate and gentle on the wort and yeast. I will run the O2 as low as possible for 5-10 minutes, then repeat that every hour or few. This is an area I plan on improving once I get some hot side equipment refined.
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby Weizenberg » Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:39 pm

uberg33k wrote:[*] How does decoction work in this system? I mean, you have to keep stirring the mash to keep it from scorching and there's many cycles of removing and adding heated mash. That would seem like a lot of O2 is getting in at that point.


Hello!

Indeed a lot of questions, and very good ones too.

I was born and bred in Bavaria and our methods are very dear to me. However, if you read the professional textbooks like Narziss for e.g. the message is very clear: avoid o2 intake during mashing. He is very adamant that the decoction needs to be pumped from below to avoid o2 intake. In fact, in all his textbooks he makes this point repeatedly.

For our modest setups, this is simply beyond reach. Never mind the cost of a positive displacement pump, but the capacity of even the smallest of these would transfer the entire decoction withing seconds. Not so good. Never mind the technical challenges of a mash-tun able to transfer bottom to bottom.

So the compromise is simple. Do an adapted step mash but drop the decoctions. My romantic heart bleeds saying this but the results clearly indicate otherwise.

In his work "Die Bierbrauerei, Vol 2" Narziss published the O2 intake on various stages. So here is your data. Nobody claims this of being original work but merely of debunking myths and misconceptions. You can also get hold of a copy of the late (RIP) Kunze in English which is much more forward and direct on this matter. Once you know what to look for it really is blatantly obvious.

Arguably, the use of sulfites is not RHG compliant. But then, most of the homebrews aren't, but the use of sulfites in the mash isn't exactly new. In the end, it will take several attempts to get the process down and to preserve the goodness of the malt -- something which is the characteristic of all good Bavarian brews.

The compromise is to drop decoctions and to step mash, avoiding any o2 intake at all costs. Why a step mash is important depends on whether you want a Bavarian Helles or just good wort. Even without a step mash the results will speak for themselves.

The problem with the HSA debate is the oversight that the strike water already oxygenates the wort. Once damaged, any further oxygenation will pretty much produce the same result. Therefore introducing more oxygen after dough in is almost irrelevant.

Of course, feel free to do you own experiments and I would love to hear your feedback. After all, the results may have blown our minds away and our enthusiasm may have gotten the better of us. Please, be as critical as you can be and let us know of your experience.

Happy brewing!
Last edited by Weizenberg on Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Weizenberg
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby Weizenberg » Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:01 am

caedus wrote:If someone were to bring me this paper I would tell them to get some more resources. But, I am an "outsider." Don't want to mix up the forum too much or you'll close it down again.


You can obtain it yourself via the VLB here.

It has all the data and explains it in much more detailed and competently than we ever could. I actually encouraged everyone here to get a copy, and I'd encourage you likewise. It's an amazing piece of work.

I also have both titles from Narziss, Abriss der Bierbrauerei and Die Bierbrauerei: Vol 2 where we cross referenced what we understood. unfortunately these were never translated, which is not a problem for me since I am from Munich and my English is adequate.
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby uberg33k » Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:32 am

Weizenberg wrote:
uberg33k wrote:[*] How does decoction work in this system? I mean, you have to keep stirring the mash to keep it from scorching and there's many cycles of removing and adding heated mash. That would seem like a lot of O2 is getting in at that point.


Hello!

Indeed a lot of questions, and very good ones too.

I was born and bred in Bavaria and our methods are very dear to me. However, if you read the professional textbooks like Narziss for e.g. the message is very clear: avoid o2 intake during mashing. He is very adamant that the decoction needs to be pumped from below to avoid o2 intake. In fact, in all his textbooks he makes this point repeatedly.

For our modest setups, this is simply beyond reach. Never mind the cost of a positive displacement pump, but the capacity of even the smallest of these would transfer the entire decoction withing seconds. Not so good. Never mind the technical challenges of a mash-tun able to transfer bottom to bottom.

So the compromise is simple. Do an adapted step mash but drop the decoctions. My romantic heart bleeds saying this but the results clearly indicate otherwise.

In his work "Die Bierbrauerei, Vol 2" Narziss published the O2 intake on various stages. So here is your data. Nobody claims this of being original work but merely of debunking myths and misconceptions. You can also get hold of a copy of the late (RIP) Kunze in English which is much more forward and direct on this matter. Once you know what to look for it really is blatantly obvious.

Arguably, the use of sulfites is not RHG compliant. But then, most of the homebrews aren't, but the use of sulfites in the mash isn't exactly new. In the end, it will take several attempts to get the process down and to preserve the goodness of the malt -- something which is the characteristic of all good Bavarian brews.

The compromise is to drop decoctions and to step mash, avoiding any o2 intake at all costs. Why a step mash is important depends on whether you want a Bavarian Helles or just good wort. Even without a step mash the results will speak for themselves.

The problem with the HSA debate is the oversight that the strike water already oxygenates the wort. Once damaged, any further oxygenation will pretty much produce the same result. Therefore introducing more oxygen after dough in is almost irrelevant.

Of course, feel free to do you own experiments and I would love to hear your feedback. After all, the results may have blown our minds away and our enthusiasm may have gotten the better of us. Please, be as critical as you can be and let us know of your experience.

Happy brewing!


You sound like a man after my own heart. The biggest reservation I have is losing the decoction step because there's just something magical there. I wonder if you couldn't essentially do a cereal mash with chit malt (maybe 20% of the grain bill), boil that to the desired color/MRP level, allow it to cool, then add it into the mash and proceed with the step mash as outlined. This way you'd be getting the MRPs and modified proteins of a decoction with the benefit of the rest of your grain being treated as low oxygen.

I think I also need to read the text you linked and a few others. I find it even more fascinating that while there might be some styles that benefit from no oxygen (like Helles) and others that might need more oxygen (like English styles) and that O2 level in brewing might be another "adjustment nob" much in the same way mash temperature and fermentation temperature can be adjusted and be used to achieve different results.
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby ajk » Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:37 am

I wonder if you could achieve a lodo decoction using the variation on the enhanced double decoction Kai writes about. You could do the typical lodo dough-in in a kettle with a boil screen, then drain off 40% of the mash (liquid only) into a mash tun where you hold it for the maltose rest. Boil what's left in the kettle, then reverse the flow, draining the liquid from the mash tun back into the kettle to hit the dextrinizaton rest. Thoughts?
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby Ancient Abbey » Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:42 am

There were several here who's hearts sunk when we learned decoctions weren't necessary for amazing beer. They are still used, and can be used in the lodo method. In general, you want to get in and out of the mash as quickly as possible, but you have to let the malt lot analysis tell you what mash profile you need for the style you are brewing. It's really that simple.

FWIW, the standard profile for evaluating German malts (Berliner Malt Program) is a step mash using 62C for 40 min, 72C for 30 min and 76C for 10 min.
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby wobdee » Sun May 01, 2016 8:09 am

ajk wrote:I wonder if you could achieve a lodo decoction using the variation on the enhanced double decoction Kai writes about. You could do the typical lodo dough-in in a kettle with a boil screen, then drain off 40% of the mash (liquid only) into a mash tun where you hold it for the maltose rest. Boil what's left in the kettle, then reverse the flow, draining the liquid from the mash tun back into the kettle to hit the dextrinizaton rest. Thoughts?


This is how I used to do my decoctions before I bought my Braumeister. I used a cooler to hold the liquid while I boiled the whole mash. It's called a Schmitz decoction or Kessel maisch. I think this would be a nice experiment with lodo, not much splashing involved if you can keep the thick mash in the same kettle for whole process.
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby Bilsch » Mon May 02, 2016 12:02 am

In a decoction It is generally wise to add the boiled (hot) decoction back into the cooler rest mash and not the other way around to avoid damage to the enzymes. I cannot envision how moving the thin rest mash to another vessel and then back would work.

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