I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Infusion, Decoction, Step, etc

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Kit_B
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby Kit_B » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:39 pm

English Mild is definitely not my thing (along with many other English beers).
Maybe, you're on to something.
Bryan R
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby Bryan R » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:42 pm

Don't forget the large doses of sulfites in the casks...Or so I have heard.
Kit_B
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby Kit_B » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:18 pm

uberg33k wrote:If that can eventually be followed up with objective measurements, then all the better.


The problems with objective measurement are many...
But, my biggest question is "What to measure?"

Oxygen:
We've taken measurements of oxygen levels in: tap water, pre-boiled mash water, post-boiled mash water, mash-temperature mash water, the mash itself, vorlauf, sparge water, sparging, lautering, the kettle, post-boil, fermentation, post fermentation & packaging. Some of these areas can have levels that are definitely influenced by the brewer & system being used. And, we know that attention throughout the entire process is required, because staling can occur at any point (though most notably during the first seconds of the mash). When I say "we know", I say that in an unquantifiable "We all have tasted & observed" sort of way.

Sulfite:
Some of us have employed sulfite test strips, to track reactions & levels, throughout the brewing process.

Stale/Oxidative Compounds:
There are numerous compounds that can be created via oxidation & staling.
Unfortunately, most of us don't have the lab or equipment available at our disposal to do testing, beyond simple tastings with observations that can be confirmed by the descriptions & interpretations of professional brewing scientists & texts. Personally, I'd love to be able to test for trans-2-nonenal & its precursors. I'd also love to be able to see exactly which phenols in the malt are damaged & influenced, first-hand. Sadly, I don't have that opportunity & have put my trust in the works of Kunze, Narziss & others that are far more experienced & advanced, with respect to the science & real-world practices.
In fact, Techbrau & Ancient Abbey are far more qualified than I am, to discuss those particular compounds.

What else can or should be measured or taken into consideration?
We are basically saying:
"It tastes way better when when you nip oxidation in the bud...Give it a try & judge for yourself"

If someone (anyone) knows a better way to attack it, or measure it...We're all ears.
Innovation & ideas are definitely encouraged.
uberg33k
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby uberg33k » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:21 pm

Bryan R wrote:Don't forget the large doses of sulfites in the casks...Or so I have heard.

Are you sure about that? I've never heard of that in the English tradition. They usually bung the cask with a point or two of gravity left to give the beer it's low CO2 levels. If you're counting on that metabolic action, carpet bombing it with sulfites would seem counter intuitive. It would also go against CAMRA's whole thing of "real ale" being a "living being". Now, if you're talking about German gravity kegs, that is a definite possibility. Those are just so rare around here that I know little about them.

Although keeping in line with the theme of this particular point, let me share something that will lead up to another question about the low oxygen process. Have a look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYm-LoothK0 Ok, now that you're done being horrified at how they mash their beer, let me point out that they're making Schwarzbier. Dark beers are loaded with MRP's which are natural antioxidants. Oxidized MRPs are flavor positive, but I'd have to go back and refer to some manuals as to the exact nature of what those changes are. My question is has this process been trialed on darker lagers yet? Would you say the flavor difference is as clear as it is when you're doing a lighter style like a Helles? I think it would be interesting to see the results.

Another question is would it be better to aerate with air from a filtered pump instead of hitting the wort with pure O2 after pitching the yeast? If your goal is to allow the minimum O2 exposure, it would seem that "step feeding" your yeast with air for 30 minutes and allowing them to absorb the O2 as it's going into solution would be better than hitting it with pure O2 all at once and having them take an hour or two to scrub it all out.
uberg33k
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby uberg33k » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:23 pm

Kit_B wrote:
uberg33k wrote:If that can eventually be followed up with objective measurements, then all the better.


The problems with objective measurement are many...
But, my biggest question is "What to measure?"

...

If someone (anyone) knows a better way to attack it, or measure it...We're all ears.
Innovation & ideas are definitely encouraged.


I think those are good places to start. I'm sure that data would open up more questions and more ideas on what to measure, how to experiment, etc. but that just means having to make more beer. Oh no! Not that! Anything but more beer! ;)
Bryan R
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby Bryan R » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:30 pm

No, I am certainly not..I know little about English beer. I thought I heard somewhere in passing that it was either added to the casks to clean and it made its way into the beer, or it was added..I have no idea, for certain though.
Kit_B
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby Kit_B » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:31 pm

uberg33k wrote:Although keeping in line with the theme of this particular point, let me share something that will lead up to another question about the low oxygen process. Have a look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYm-LoothK0 Ok, now that you're done being horrified at how they mash their beer, let me point out that they're making Schwarzbier. Dark beers are loaded with MRP's which are natural antioxidants. Oxidized MRPs are flavor positive, but I'd have to go back and refer to some manuals as to the exact nature of what those changes are. My question is has this process been trialed on darker lagers yet? Would you say the flavor difference is as clear as it is when you're doing a lighter style like a Helles? I think it would be interesting to see the results.


Please, keep in mind that we're attempting to address a more modernized way of brewing beers, to ensure a lasting freshness.
It is actually doubtful that many of the process components we are suggesting were used prior to the 1970s.
Obviously, campden & inert gases were available.

(Honestly...The possibility of bat poo in open fermenters makes me want to vomit.)

A handful of guys here brewed dark beers & really loved the results.
In fact, Ancient Abbey did a couple smoked beers that he raved about.

uberg33k wrote:Another question is would it be better to aerate with air from a filtered pump instead of hitting the wort with pure O2 after pitching the yeast? If your goal is to allow the minimum O2 exposure, it would seem that "step feeding" your yeast with air for 30 minutes and allowing them to absorb the O2 as it's going into solution would be better than hitting it with pure O2 all at once and having them take an hour or two to scrub it all out.


Have you been spying on Techbrau, when he adds oxygen?
;)
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Brandon
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby Brandon » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:33 pm

I have been step feeding...we've had many a discussion about that and it makes sense. And, cold side reactions occur much slower, so there is more grace against oxidation issues.
caedus
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby caedus » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:48 pm

Step feeding? As in...

* 3 ppm o2
* Wait an hour
* 3 ppm o2
* wait... repeat until 12 ppm total?
Techbrau
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Re: I have so many questions about the low O2 paper

Postby Techbrau » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:55 pm

I aerate using a 1 micron stone attached to an aquarium pump with an inline HEPA filter and flow control valve.

I set the flow to deliver 2-3 ppm oxygen per hour to the wort. I first mix the yeast in, then set the pump going. I'll usually keep it running for about 4 hours.
If you always do what you've always done, then you'll always get what you've always gotten.

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