lodo w/SMB vs lodo w/BB

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Ancient Abbey
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lodo w/SMB vs lodo w/BB

Postby Ancient Abbey » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:22 am

Brewtan B is not an oxygen scavenger like SMB; however, it may act on a separate mechanism of action to accomplish the same end result, namely preventing hot side oxidation (HSO) during the mash and boil. We know from testing methods along the path to developing lodo that pre-boiling alone, nor any single low-aeration brewing practice, will not give the fresh, lingering, lodo malt flavor. It required the action of an oxygen scavenger in addition to fundamental lodo brewing processes. To compare reagents that act on HSO mechanisms, it was important to maintain good brewing practices through out the process and not change any variables.

I brewed up two batches of helles to see if BB is a direct replacement for SMB. All other lodo practices were implemented, and the only variable was the the reagent. Both batches were brewed using:
1) pre-boiled strike and sparge water
2) underlet pumping for dough-in and subsequent transfer to BK
3) mash cap
4) copperless system
5) low boil (210-211F at the surface temp)
6) fast wort chilling
7) minimal time in the BK once chilled
8) yeast pitched during transfer from BK to fermenter.
9) cold fermentation (6C->9C>6C>3C)
10) equal volumes of stir-plate-propagated yeast from the same culture
11) grists and hops from the same lot of ingredients
12) MH and FWH

Again, I wasn't interested to see if BB could mitigate HSO with hido brewing, but rather ask if BB is a direct substitute for SMB in a lodo process. In other words, is using a compound that blocks superoxides from being formed by binding up Fenton reagents as equally effective in preserving fresh, lingering malt flavor as using a reagent that directly binds up all forms of dissolved oxygen. I have the results of the brew days, as well as my own tasting notes. I will continue to take tasting notes along the way. A handful of folks I know whom are excellent performers in triangle tests will be given a repeated series of randomized tests once both beers are finished.

The Helles:
OG: 11.4 P
FG: 2.7 P
IBU: 15
EBC: 7

77% Best Pilsner
15% Best Vienna
5% Best Light Munich
3% Sauermalt
6 IBU Mittelfruh @ MH
6 IBU Perle @ FWH
3 IBU Mittlefruh @ SBH (15 min)
RO Water
3:1 Calcium chloride to calcium sulphate @ 50ppm Ca2+

BB - 1/4 tsp (per 5 gal) @ dough-in in MT, 1/4 tsp (per 5 gal) @ 15 min in BK (per Joe Formanek interview)
SMB - 75 mg/l in strike water, 10 mg/l in sparge water

Recipe & Grains.jpg
Recipe & Grains.jpg (3.39 MiB) Viewed 894 times
Last edited by Ancient Abbey on Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:21 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Ancient Abbey
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Re: lodo w/ SMB vs lodo w/BB

Postby Ancient Abbey » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:28 am

For all pics below, the SMB will be on the left and the BB on the right.

Here is a pic of the wort about 5 min after doughing-in. Interestingly, I normally have to continuously monitor the liquid levels when filling the MT to see when it is full, as I cannot easily see under the mash cap, and I have no other indication that the water level is rising. With the BB mash, I could smell the mash once it once the grains were completely covered with strike water.

Dough-in SMB vs BB.jpg
Dough-in SMB vs BB.jpg (524.64 KiB) Viewed 893 times


Here is a pic after 20 min @ 63C

End of beta SMB vs BB.jpg
End of beta SMB vs BB.jpg (597.73 KiB) Viewed 893 times


Here is a pic after 40 min @ 72C

End of Alpha SMB vs BB.jpg
End of Alpha SMB vs BB.jpg (599.19 KiB) Viewed 893 times
Last edited by Ancient Abbey on Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: lodo w/ SMB vs lodo w/BB

Postby Ancient Abbey » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:31 am

Here is a picture after 10 min @mash-out (75C).

Mash-out SMB vs BB.jpg
Mash-out SMB vs BB.jpg (572.21 KiB) Viewed 893 times



Here is a BK sample right after sparging was complete.

Post-sparge SMB vs BB.jpg
Post-sparge SMB vs BB.jpg (475.22 KiB) Viewed 893 times


Here is the final color at OG strength after the boil was finished.

Post-boil SMB vs BB.jpg
Post-boil SMB vs BB.jpg (486.36 KiB) Viewed 893 times
Last edited by Ancient Abbey on Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: lodo w/ SMB vs lodo w/BB

Postby Ancient Abbey » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:51 am

Here is a side-by-side of the pre & post-boil with SMB and pre & post-boil with BB.

Pre&Post SMB vs BB.jpg
Pre&Post SMB vs BB.jpg (593.01 KiB) Viewed 890 times



Mash and Boil Sensory Notes

SMB: The SMB wort is visibly lighter in all samples, and visibly much clearer post-boil (this may be BB in suspension from the 15 min addition and may eventually settle out). The wort sample tastes very fresh, and smells of fresh fields of hay and wildflowers. On the warm samples, the fresh lingering malt reminds me of baking bread, slightly doughy, and warm crescent rolls. Once it cools, it reminds me of cookie dough and croissants. I could not smell the malt at any time during the mash. This wort lacks some of the sweetness I am accustomed to in helles wort, likely bc I removed all caramalts in this recipe. The honey note and sweetness is largely subdued. The final sample post-boil was every bit as delicious as the wort samples, and I finished the whole thing.

BB: The BB is visibly darker in all samples and several samples show that distinctive orange hue of hido helles. I believe the wort began to lighten up the longer the mash recirculated as the BB was likely being reduced by the filter bed. The 15 min BB addition in the boil kettle made the wort quite cloudy. Standing within 3-4 ft, you could smell the mash the entire time, despite having both a mash cap and lid in place on the MT. The boil was increasingly fragrant and you could smell the wort throughout the entire area. The warm mash samples had hints of bread and bread crust. The wort was noticeably sweet and candy-like and reminded me more of malted milk balls and opening DME or LME instead of chewing on fresh grains. The post-boil wort was dull and candy-like, and reminded me of old, dilute LME. I didn't want to finish the sample.

I'll follow up with sensory notes during fermentation and once complete, as well as (I hope) some triangle test results. A big thanks to wobdee and mchrispen for sending me samples of BB for this testing (and more to follow).
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Re: lodo w/SMB vs lodo w/BB

Postby Natebriscoe » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:02 am

So it proves what most people on this forum were thinking. I am still probably going to have my club do this, maybe 3 ways, normal, btb, low o2.
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Re: lodo w/SMB vs lodo w/BB

Postby JayR » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:38 am

I had the good fortune to be at AA's place not long after the BB batch was finished and I sampled the wort. My impression was a sugary sweetness that lacked depth, I didn't get the bread notes or malt flavors that the lodo process with SMB has yielded. When Ancient asked me to describe the flavor, I said it tasted "like all the wort I used to make before lodo."
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Re: lodo w/SMB vs lodo w/BB

Postby mchrispen » Sun Oct 16, 2016 12:32 pm

I had this discussion earlier in the week with a brewing friend. It can also be easily demonstrated in water - SMB can bring the measured DO to nearly zero. BB has no impact on DO. I do see fantastic clarity when I use both, and less break material early in the boil, suggesting more protein/trub is remaining in the mash tun. I seem to be leaving more cold break in the kettle after chilling.

FWIW - I am using BB at the rates I put into the spreadsheet, which are the manufacturer recommendations.
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Weizenberg
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Re: lodo w/SMB vs lodo w/BB

Postby Weizenberg » Sun Oct 16, 2016 12:44 pm

That's a very thorough witeup. Many thanks for troubling yourself!
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Re: lodo w/SMB vs lodo w/BB

Postby wobdee » Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:01 pm

I've been using BB in the mash along with SMB for quite a few batches now. The one time I used BB in the boil the cooled wort was very hazy orange and took 6 weeks lagering to clear out. Without the BB boil addition my wort is crystal clear.
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Re: lodo w/SMB vs lodo w/BB

Postby Weizenberg » Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:25 pm

SMB has a long history in wine making and also brewing (I remember Tech digging out its use from some older English textbooks).

So that's a good 2 millennia. The romans already employed it.
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