Low 02 Head Retention

Infusion, Decoction, Step, etc

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Natebriscoe
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Low 02 Head Retention

Postby Natebriscoe » Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:28 am

I have read that reducing DO will hurt head retention, is it possible that some DO is needed for foam? I have many low 02 beers that have pretty much no head (including the helles per the paper). At this point they all have a fair amount of residual smb (have lowered dosage since), could the lack of oxidation be causing this?
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Re: Low 02 Head Retention

Postby wobdee » Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:38 am

Mine were the same way until I started adding 4-6% carafoam
Techbrau
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Re: Low 02 Head Retention

Postby Techbrau » Sun Nov 06, 2016 11:03 am

Low oxygen mashing does hurt foam in some sense, because the polymerized malt phenolics formed via HSO are foam positive compounds. That said, there are ways to get the foam back and make it even better quality than it was before.

5% carafoam will help, but the biggest improvement I saw was adding a 10 minute 76c rest. So nowadays my mash is 15 minutes at 64c, 30 minutes at 72c, and 10 minutes at 76c. I have a directly heated recirculated system, so I spend a good 10 minutes stepping from 64c to 72c. Sauergut will also increase the quality (stickiness) of the foam, as will spunding and gentle, cold lagering.
If you always do what you've always done, then you'll always get what you've always gotten.
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Re: RE: Re: Low 02 Head Retention

Postby Natebriscoe » Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:41 pm

Techbrau wrote:Low oxygen mashing does hurt foam in some sense, because the polymerized malt phenolics formed via HSO are foam positive compounds. That said, there are ways to get the foam back and make it even better quality than it was before.

5% carafoam will help, but the biggest improvement I saw was adding a 10 minute 76c rest. So nowadays my mash is 15 minutes at 64c, 30 minutes at 72c, and 10 minutes at 76c. I have a directly heated recirculated system, so I spend a good 10 minutes stepping from 64c to 72c. Sauergut will also increase the quality (stickiness) of the foam, as will spunding and gentle, cold lagering.

What do you think you are getting at 168 that you wouldn't get at 161? Extra polyphenols?
Techbrau
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Re: Low 02 Head Retention

Postby Techbrau » Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:49 pm

Glycoproteins, according to Narziss.

In general, polyphenols are what we are trying to avoid creating/extracting.
If you always do what you've always done, then you'll always get what you've always gotten.
Natebriscoe
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Re: RE: Re: Low 02 Head Retention

Postby Natebriscoe » Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:03 pm

Techbrau wrote:Glycoproteins, according to Narziss.

In general, polyphenols are what we are trying to avoid creating/extracting.

That's what I thought on the polyphenols.
About all my low o2 recipes have around 5% cara. All pretty much have no head retention.
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lupulus
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Re: Low 02 Head Retention

Postby lupulus » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:36 am

Not my experience at all. Awesome head retention before LODO, and awesome head retention with SMB LODO, SMB + Brewtan LODO and SMB + AA + Brewtan LODO.
Where exactly is the reference that LODO hurts head retention?
This is extremely counterintuitive. I do not recall a single Helles in Munich with bad head retention and I am sure I consumed more than 1000 of them.
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Bilsch
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Re: Low 02 Head Retention

Postby Bilsch » Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:05 pm

Head retention hasn't been an issue for my lodo batches, even the first which used 100mg/l smb. I will say the latest two batches using cold ferment (7c) have noticeably better foam.
Techbrau
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Re: Low 02 Head Retention

Postby Techbrau » Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:59 am

To clarify, I don't think it's quite accurate to say that preventing oxidation hurts foam.

What instead seems to be the case is that hot side oxidative damage improves foam, while at the same time damaging flavor. Basically, the "good" flavor molecules - simple, low molecular weight phenols - get oxidized and then chain up to form polyphenolic compounds which have a worse flavor but act as foam positive molecules.

So HSO can in some sense make up for other process shortcomings foam-wise.

If you are brewing with a solid process all around, low o2 will not result in poor foam.
If you always do what you've always done, then you'll always get what you've always gotten.
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Weizenberg
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Re: RE: Re: Low 02 Head Retention

Postby Weizenberg » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:33 am

Natebriscoe wrote:About all my low o2 recipes have around 5% cara. All pretty much have no head retention.


Without the brew sheet it's difficult to trouble-shoot. Mine actually have 2% Cara max and I get so much head that I'm actually thinking of dropping the cara content entirely, or at least reducing it.
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