ferulic acid rest in lodo for Hefeweizen ?

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Nick_D
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ferulic acid rest in lodo for Hefeweizen ?

Postby Nick_D » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:22 am

In a few days I am brewing a Hefeweizen (whilst I continue chipping away at the cold ferment thing), and of course would like to do it lodo. Mash schedules I have used before included a ferulic acid rest at 43C for up to 30 mins before raising mash temp. This seems to be rather inconvenient with a lodo mash. The time taken chilling down after boiling might be diminishing returns. However, perhaps one could use the method Bilsch has been experimenting with, of de-gassing with a dose of yeast and dextrose for the acid rest water, and then afterwards infusing with pre boiled, and SMB/AA combination to get to 62-64C ? (dosed to cover both infusion water, and undosed acid rest water).

Or, do people think the ferulic acid rest is not worth the extra trouble/potential oxidation issues ?

On a side note, I am thinking of dosing with 20 mg/L SMB + 80 mg/L AA. Is 20 mg/L still too much SMB for an ale?
I'll be bottling with remaining extract, like with spunding.

Thanks !
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Re: ferulic acid rest in lodo for Hefeweizen ?

Postby Natebriscoe » Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:48 am

I like a ferulic rest with a hefe, but can't really answer if it's worth the trouble. I sure there's a good work around for the low o2 aspect.
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Re: ferulic acid rest in lodo for Hefeweizen ?

Postby TheHairyHop » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:09 am

a ferulic acid rest is near the temp range of some heat tolerant yeast strains. you could pitch some with dextrose and they may munch away quite well. worth an experiment imo if the rest is something you want to go for

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/20 ... rains.html
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Re: ferulic acid rest in lodo for Hefeweizen ?

Postby lupulus » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:23 am

The extrapolation of the light-colored lagers lodo method to other beer has not been researched. Nobody can deny that redox reactions occur during the mash, lautering, boil and fermentation, but the scientific evidence for using lodo methods in the hot side is only available for light lagers to my knowledge (as those were the beers in the experimental models). It is not self-evident that lodo will work for every beer style. As I am sure you know, micro oxidation makes many beer styles, and many wines and meads much better.
I actually think that one of the beer styles that may benefit from lodo is weissbier, but I do not have any evidence nor I have seen any evidence to support this hypothesis. Cheers!
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Re: ferulic acid rest in lodo for Hefeweizen ?

Postby Techbrau » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:34 pm

Weissbier should be brewed Lodo to get the proper malt flavor. The best examples from Bavaria have the same underlying low oxygen malt flavor that their lagers do.

One problem you may run into is with residual sulfite because several of us have had problems with hefe yeast and too much sulfite. Ideally to brew a good Lodo weissbier you should focus on making your system as tight as possible with little to no oxygen pickup, so that the only SMB required is just enough to scavenge the 0.5 ppm or so left after preboiling and the 1 ppm or so added at dough in. A tight system with 25 mg/l or so SMB should do the trick.

As far as which styles benefit from Lodo, that is really up to you personally. If you want to make beers that have the same flavors as the most famous commercial German brands then you need to brew low oxygen. That includes the marzens and dunkels and schwarzbiers and weizens too, not just the light lagers. Most macro lagers brewed around the world (e.g. anything owned by InBev or SAB Miller, etc) are also brewed low oxygen. But as far as I can tell, few if any craft breweries in America brew low oxygen, and it appears that most Belgian breweries don't either. There are some in the UK that do, but most don't.

Lodo changes the flavor of all malts, so just think of it as a way to double the number of malt varieties at your disposal. You now have a Lodo version as well as a Hido version of each malt to work with. Hido recipes will not always directly translate to good Lodo recipes and vice versa. As one example, Lodo intensifies the flavor of roasted malts so much that it becomes difficult to make a dunkel or schwarzbier with the proper color without an overwhelming roast flavor. So you need to adjust the recipe for Lodo by doing something like a cold steep with the roasted malts, adding them at vorlauf, or using sinamar instead.
If you always do what you've always done, then you'll always get what you've always gotten.
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Re: ferulic acid rest in lodo for Hefeweizen ?

Postby Weizenberg » Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:02 pm

I am not too sure about hido and lodo. These are just abbreviations for badly done and properly done.

All good brew-masters know that in order to make great beer oxygen is to be avoided from bag to bottle.

A Ferulic Acid rest is very important indeed. Schneider actually does it at 38C, where it's at the optimimum. 10-15 minute rest.

The alternative, which is my old favourite, is the maltase mash.

Both work really well. And yes, you need to keep oxygen in check all the time.

Here is how you can do it.

Method 1:

Dough in at 38C, rest for 10 minutes.
Infuse with hot water up to 55C, rest for 15 minutes.
Infuse with hot water up to 62C, proceed as usual

Method 2:

Split the grain, say 50/50.
Mash first part the usual way. Dough in at 62C, then 72C saccarification rest
You are now the proud owner of maltose in your mash.

Now you will use the maltase enzyme to convert the maltose into Glucose.
Use cool water at 25C to cool the mixture down to 40-43C.
Add the remaining malt
Rest for 30 minutes
Heat 1C per minute to 72C
Convert (about 15')
mash out at 77C

I've got some notes online about method 2

https://edelstoffquest.wordpress.com/20 ... technique/
https://edelstoffquest.wordpress.com/20 ... -herrmann/

Hope this helps
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Nick_D
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Re: ferulic acid rest in lodo for Hefeweizen ?

Postby Nick_D » Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:17 am

Weizenberg wrote:I am not too sure about hido and lodo. These are just abbreviations for badly done and properly done.

All good brew-masters know that in order to make great beer oxygen is to be avoided from bag to bottle.

A Ferulic Acid rest is very important indeed. Schneider actually does it at 38C, where it's at the optimimum. 10-15 minute rest.

The alternative, which is my old favourite, is the maltase mash.

Both work really well. And yes, you need to keep oxygen in check all the time.

Here is how you can do it.

Method 1:

Dough in at 38C, rest for 10 minutes.
Infuse with hot water up to 55C, rest for 15 minutes.
Infuse with hot water up to 62C, proceed as usual

Method 2:

Split the grain, say 50/50.
Mash first part the usual way. Dough in at 62C, then 72C saccarification rest
You are now the proud owner of maltose in your mash.

Now you will use the maltase enzyme to convert the maltose into Glucose.
Use cool water at 25C to cool the mixture down to 40-43C.
Add the remaining malt
Rest for 30 minutes
Heat 1C per minute to 72C
Convert (about 15')
mash out at 77C

I've got some notes online about method 2

https://edelstoffquest.wordpress.com/20 ... technique/
https://edelstoffquest.wordpress.com/20 ... -herrmann/

Hope this helps


Thanks Nico, that is very good information indeed. I've run some number crunching on both methods.

For method 1, I will need to dough in at a thickness of 1.6 L/kg..... very thick! This will yield a mash thickness of 4.3 L/kg at the 72C rest (having gone 38C > 55C > 62C > 72C), which for my grain bill of 4.7 Kg, will be the maximum my 'cooler' style tun can handle (25 liter volume). This is sacrificing a mash out in order to start with a mash thickness with any water at all ;)

For method 2, I will need to start the 1st half of the mash at approx 1.35 L/Kg in order to stay within the confines of my mash tun volume. This is again sacrificing the mash out of 77C..... This is treating the incoming 2nd half of grain like water in terms of it's affect on lowering overall temperature, in combination with the cooler water. My knowledge of thermodynamics is however poor, so I realise this may not quite work out.... Time to get a bigger mash tun.

Unfortunately I have no way of slowly raising the temp from 43C to 72C as you suggest. Presently I am stuck with hot water infusions :\

With these factors in mind. Am I, in your opinion, positioned to attempt either method? Are these unreasonably thick initial mashes ? I'm guessing the saurgut would go in at 55C for the 1st method, and immediately at 62C with the second method, with a second addition of saurgut along with the rest of the grain after the 43C rest ? Tricky !

Thank you again.
Last edited by Nick_D on Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nick_D
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Re: ferulic acid rest in lodo for Hefeweizen ?

Postby Nick_D » Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:27 am

Techbrau wrote:Weissbier should be brewed Lodo to get the proper malt flavor. The best examples from Bavaria have the same underlying low oxygen malt flavor that their lagers do.

One problem you may run into is with residual sulfite because several of us have had problems with hefe yeast and too much sulfite. Ideally to brew a good Lodo weissbier you should focus on making your system as tight as possible with little to no oxygen pickup, so that the only SMB required is just enough to scavenge the 0.5 ppm or so left after preboiling and the 1 ppm or so added at dough in. A tight system with 25 mg/l or so SMB should do the trick.


Thanks for the reply Tech! Yeah, I've been reading things regarding the undesirable effects of excessive SMB when used with ale yeasts. Sounds like 25 mg/l SMB is a tolerant dose for hefe yeast then ? What if I were to dose with 25 mg/l SMB, and hit it with another 60 -70 mg/l ascorbic acid for extra safety... perhaps the SMB could be lowered even further? I was very interested in the testing done by Ancient Abbey where he tried AA for lodo.

Perhaps initial dough in water for acid rest at 38C can be degassed with yeast as described by Bilsch, then incoming hot water infusions are pre-boiled and dosed with <25 mg/l SMB and AA combination ?
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Nick_D
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Re: ferulic acid rest in lodo for Hefeweizen ?

Postby Nick_D » Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:32 am

TheHairyHop wrote:a ferulic acid rest is near the temp range of some heat tolerant yeast strains. you could pitch some with dextrose and they may munch away quite well. worth an experiment imo if the rest is something you want to go for

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/20 ... rains.html


Thanks Hairy. Indeed. Although I don't think any special yeast would be required for this, especially on the low end of the acid rest of 38C. Pretty sure bakers yeast is happy up there :tu
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Weizenberg
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Re: ferulic acid rest in lodo for Hefeweizen ?

Postby Weizenberg » Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:11 am

Nick_D wrote:
Weizenberg wrote:Method 1:

Dough in at 38C, rest for 10 minutes.
Infuse with hot water up to 55C, rest for 15 minutes.
Infuse with hot water up to 62C, proceed as usual

Method 2:

Split the grain, say 50/50.
Mash first part the usual way. Dough in at 62C, then 72C saccarification rest
You are now the proud owner of maltose in your mash.

Now you will use the maltase enzyme to convert the maltose into Glucose.
Use cool water at 25C to cool the mixture down to 40-43C.
Add the remaining malt
Rest for 30 minutes
Heat 1C per minute to 72C
Convert (about 15')
mash out at 77C


Thanks Nico, that is very good information indeed. I've run some number crunching on both methods.

For method 1, I will need to dough in at a thickness of 1.6 L/kg..... very thick! This will yield a mash thickness of 4.3 L/kg at the 72C rest (having gone 38C > 55C > 62C > 72C), which for my grain bill of 4.7 Kg, will be the maximum my 'cooler' style tun can handle (25 liter volume). This is sacrificing a mash out in order to start with a mash thickness with any water at all ;)


I'd sacrifice the mash-out. Prolong the 72C rest to last 40 minutes then. It'll work nicely mate.

Nick_D wrote:For method 2, I will need to start the 1st half of the mash at approx 1.35 L/Kg in order to stay within the confines of my mash tun volume. This is again sacrificing the mash out of 77C..... This is treating the incoming 2nd half of grain like water in terms of it's affect on lowering overall temperature, in combination with the cooler water. My knowledge of thermodynamics is however poor, so I realise this may not quite work out.... Time to get a bigger mash tun.

Unfortunately I have no way of slowly raising the temp from 43C to 72C as you suggest. Presently I am stuck with hot water infusions :\

With these factors in mind. Am I, in your opinion, positioned to attempt either method? Are these unreasonably thick initial mashes ? I'm guessing the saurgut would go in at 55C for the 1st method, and immediately at 62C with the second method, with a second addition of saurgut along with the rest of the grain after the 43C rest ? Tricky !


For wheat beers direct heated or recirculation systems are better suited. I'd stay clear of the maltase mash right now.

I'd stick to method 1 right now! ...used to make loads of nice wheat beers on a small system using this method.
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