Bryan's Quasi HERMs/Decoction/Cold Sparge Madness

Infusion, Decoction, Step, etc

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Techbrau
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Re: Bryan's Quasi HERMs/Decoction/Cold Sparge Madness

Postby Techbrau » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:49 pm

Ancient Abbey wrote:
Bryan R wrote:.
It's shameful that someone would steal your login and delete all the information that proves who in the group actually came up with LODO.


Nah, my posts are still here. He can't delete them.

What's unfortunate is the fact that so much of the LODO development was done via facebook messenger group chats, so there isn't a public paper trail establishing the rightful credit of each person's contributions to the process - like Nico's contributions of spunding and sauergut.

I agree with you guys that it's actually pretty laughable that Bryan makes all kinds of bogus claims on his website that he's been "brewing low oxygen for 2 years" and such when the timestamps in this thread prove that I first put forth the theory about low levels of HSA being responsible for destroying the "it" malt flavor only 17 months ago, along with my suggestions of preboiling the water and using Campden to fight it.

I think it sucks that Bryan has built an entire website based upon other people's ideas and insights, and is trying to pass it off as his own and make himself into a guru. He would have never in 1,000 years figured out LODO if myself and Nico hadn't come along.
If you always do what you've always done, then you'll always get what you've always gotten.
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Weizenberg
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Re: Bryan's Quasi HERMs/Decoction/Cold Sparge Madness

Postby Weizenberg » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:59 pm

Well, none of us would have made good progress if we wouldn't have collaborated with so much zeal. And that's the disappointing thing. Suddenly someone emerges who is trying to turn the limelight on himself for doubious gains, disrespecting the communal efforts.

It's not great to have witnessed that. As result it made me a lot less willing to share insights.

Nobody wins.
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Re: Bryan's Quasi HERMs/Decoction/Cold Sparge Madness

Postby Bryan R » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:16 pm

I wasn't going to post, but ehh whatever. I didn't delete any posts, sadly I think this is an attempt (poor at that) to get a rouse out of me, but in all honesty I think its feeble and weak minded of you (only really one of you). I moved past this quite some time ago, when a silent update to the paper was put out, not at all putting it by the founding members first, by whom one may ask? Well this trio, go figure?!?! That disbanded a group who a majority of all got funny feelings about a new member (yes of course there were secret, secret chats.. mostly about you..) you rubbed us all wrong and look where we are. Anyway's I do have all those chats recorded for posterity. Most of us all brought stuff to the table, and in all honesty everything that was/is Low Oxygen Brewing, was supposed to be put here on our blog, go ahead and ask Brandon, I told him for months about what I wanted to do. Low and behold an updated paper comes out that wasn't approved by the group, and here we are today.

I think its extremely poor form on your parts to air this "dirty laundry" here in the public, but maybe folks can now see how juvenile certain members act. I have done nothing but always praise those who put in the effort and work, I have linked back here numerous times. I put this group together, searching the far reaches of the internet, and its sad to see the one bad apple metaphor here. I have always been more than professional and its shameful you had to resort to mud slinging. I however will continue to be professional and help everywhere I can so that all can experience that is, low oxygen beer. So you can continue to delete my posts, retract my forum access, but I will still be here until you ban me. I wish you all the best in this as I learned after battling the AHA, there is no point in arguing on the internet. This was and is a niche place on the internet specializing in German beer creation, low oxygen brewing is an over arching technique that all beer benefits from. I took it to a larger audience, wasn't that the point of the paper? But in the end its just beer, remember? Take a step back refocus and carry on.
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Brandon
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Re: Bryan's Quasi HERMs/Decoction/Cold Sparge Madness

Postby Brandon » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:12 pm

Bryan R wrote:I wasn't going to post, but ehh whatever. I didn't delete any posts, sadly I think this is an attempt (poor at that) to get a rouse out of me, but in all honesty I think its feeble and weak minded of you (only really one of you). I moved past this quite some time ago, when a silent update to the paper was put out, not at all putting it by the founding members first, by whom one may ask? Well this trio, go figure?!?! That disbanded a group who a majority of all got funny feelings about a new member (yes of course there were secret, secret chats.. mostly about you..) you rubbed us all wrong and look where we are. Anyway's I do have all those chats recorded for posterity. Most of us all brought stuff to the table, and in all honesty everything that was/is Low Oxygen Brewing, was supposed to be put here on our blog, go ahead and ask Brandon, I told him for months about what I wanted to do. Low and behold an updated paper comes out that wasn't approved by the group, and here we are today.

I think its extremely poor form on your parts to air this "dirty laundry" here in the public, but maybe folks can now see how juvenile certain members act. I have done nothing but always praise those who put in the effort and work, I have linked back here numerous times. I put this group together, searching the far reaches of the internet, and its sad to see the one bad apple metaphor here. I have always been more than professional and its shameful you had to resort to mud slinging. I however will continue to be professional and help everywhere I can so that all can experience that is, low oxygen beer. So you can continue to delete my posts, retract my forum access, but I will still be here until you ban me. I wish you all the best in this as I learned after battling the AHA, there is no point in arguing on the internet. This was and is a niche place on the internet specializing in German beer creation, low oxygen brewing is an over arching technique that all beer benefits from. I took it to a larger audience, wasn't that the point of the paper? But in the end its just beer, remember? Take a step back refocus and carry on.


So, the thing I can't get over is how it is this ENTIRE group (my dumb old self included...the least adept, least savy brewer among the group) is responsible for where we are with our thinking on LODO and brewing German beers. Bryan reached out to me in 2015 (a week or two after my summer trip to Germany) after he found the German Brewing Facebook page and offered to send me some beer. He sent me some beers and I honestly replied that they were quite tasty but lacked 'it'. And we set off to find 'it'. Now, 'it', in and of itself seems to be quite the rainbow pooping unicorn. 60 million Germans, a bunch of Indians, Chinese and Japanese (Pols...Lech is pretty tasty in the same vein) seem to find it (maybe others). Bryan pulled an amazing team of people together to figure this out. Is it all bias? That's a whole other (fair) question to answer. But there's a ton of talent here working on the same thing. Good god, can we just build on this? Yeah, I have no epiphany to offer here, but that this is a great group of people, who I think are all on the same quest with the same goal. I have to give kudos to Bryan for putting together articles and a site with concise information. I hope that is useful to people. Same as Weizenburg, his blog is awesome, so helpful. And the LODO paper (both versions...don't get bent over it Bryan). I dunno...what can we do to help each other and the community at large who want to brew great German lagers? Can't this just be simple?

BTW, I don't think I have deleted any posts and don't think anyone else has either. As far as I can tell, posts that folks thought Bryan had deleted ended up being due to restricted access that happened when the LI group was deleted. I think all the content is here. And it sounds like Bryan (as well as I) have all the FB posts over the past few years. And yes, I consider Bryan a founder of German Brewing, in the 'modern' sense (along with Techbrau, Weizenberg, Kit, Bilsch, Ancient Abbey, wobdee, etc...and for that matter, anyone else who comes along). I created the original Facebook page that Bryan found, we all collaborated on LODO and other experiments, I consider Techbrau to have the lightbulb click about oxygen in the mash, there's a bunch of back-posts and references to earlier findings about oxygen in the mash throughout the forum (including stuff I think rauchbrau found and tried, etc.

My only wish is that we'd sucked Kai into the process. :)

There's no dirty laundry (honestly, no one else cares), only great beer to be brewed!

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Big Monk
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Re: Bryan's Quasi HERMs/Decoction/Cold Sparge Madness

Postby Big Monk » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:38 am

I can't really add a ton here, but i'll give it a shot.....

I remember having my interest in brewing re-invigorated once I came around to the conclusion that there was something to the methods described here and in the original paper. My history with the concepts were sketchy and I was once a vocal opponent. Vocal is an understatement.

I can't speak directly to any of the in fighting that went on some time back on this forum. Frankly the issues and personality conflicts pre-dated my re-discovery of the concepts. What I can say is that when Bryan and I kicked the idea around about the "Methods of the Low Oxygen Brewhouse" paper, it was due to an overwhelming desire for, and frankly demand for, a modified procedure from people over at the AHA Forum. We were seeing some people open to the ideas and they were getting hung up procedurally and trying to find ways they could implement a phased approach towards success.

As far as stealing/plagiarizing, selling other peoples accomplishments short, etc. I know that I can't personally sign on to that notion. We list the April 2016 GBF paper in our references, express that the original concepts came out of the collective and make a point to, Bryan in particular, not to claim that Low Oxygen Brewing is the brainchild of any person in particular. The concepts have been around for some time. Bryan has always expressed to me that Techbrau should be credited with the light bulb moment that put you guys on the path. That is inexplicable. Implementation and refining of the processes differs from person to person.

As far as dubious gains, I am unsure how it could be perceived this way. Financially? I know Bryan and I haven't profited from the spreadsheet or the website or the forum. Reputation? I mean, as Bryan said (and Brandon re-iterated), no one really cares about people talking about high level beer on the internet. This is a niche topic within another niche topic.

At the end of the day people just seem to want to get a handle on the process and there are a handful of people with a sort of "tribal knowledge" that could make that happen.
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Brandon
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Re: Bryan's Quasi HERMs/Decoction/Cold Sparge Madness

Postby Brandon » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:48 am

Looking at this thread in more detail this morning...what's with the .'s and edited/removed content? I thought by deleted content you guys were referring to stuff from a long time ago.
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Ancient Abbey
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Re: Bryan's Quasi HERMs/Decoction/Cold Sparge Madness

Postby Ancient Abbey » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:51 pm

Big Monk wrote:I can't really add a ton here...

Agreed
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Re: Bryan's Quasi HERMs/Decoction/Cold Sparge Madness

Postby Big Monk » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:03 pm

Ancient Abbey wrote:
Big Monk wrote:I can't really add a ton here...

Agreed


What a coincidence. In the flurry of activity that involved you changing your signature and the old posts that were alleged to have been deleted by Bryan suddenly re-appearing, it's seems Bryan has deleted his account.
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Ancient Abbey
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Re: Bryan's Quasi HERMs/Decoction/Cold Sparge Madness

Postby Ancient Abbey » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:08 pm

Yeah, the difference between correlation and causation can be confusing.
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Re: Bryan's Quasi HERMs/Decoction/Cold Sparge Madness

Postby Big Monk » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:34 pm

Why don't you go ahead and delete me too while you have your finger near the button.
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