Lodo beers to dry

Brewing water, and water profiles

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Natebriscoe
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Lodo beers to dry

Postby Natebriscoe » Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:22 pm

Since starting lodo with smb pretty much all the beers are coming out to dry, not in gravity but in flavor. Is there a good way to figure out how much sulfate is actually being added?
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Re: Lodo beers to dry

Postby Bryan R » Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:40 pm

Huh?

The paper explains the sulfate content...

What are the recipes you are using?
Techbrau
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Re: Lodo beers to dry

Postby Techbrau » Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:06 pm

It is not straightforward to predict how much sulfate is being produced by the oxidation of sulfur compounds from SMB. It will vary considerably from system to system.

1 ppm sulfite, when fully oxidized, will actually contribute 1.2 ppm sulfate because each sulfite molecule gains the mass of one oxygen atom when it forms sulfate. SMB contributes both sulfite and sulfur dioxide to the mash, and 1 ppm sulfur dioxide, when oxidized, will contribute approx 1.5 ppm sulfate. However, the sulfur compounds are eliminated in other ways (such as boiling off, reacting with other molecules like chloramines, or even being a nutrient for yeast) so not every sulfite molecule you add will get oxidized into a sulfate molecule. It's also not easy to know whether the majority of the oxygen scavenging will be done by the sulfite or sulfur dioxide.

If you are very curious, I would suggest buying some sulfate test strips from amazon. You can use these to test the final concentration of sulfate in your wort/beer.

We tried to make the process in the paper as one-size-fits-all and foolproof as possible, but the truth is that LODO brewing is all about optimizing your own system. As you tighten it up by doing things like adding a mash cap, removing all leaks from your recirculation line, doughing-in from below, etc. you will be able to reduce your SMB dose to 50 mg/l or less.

Do you know what the sulfate concentration of your source water is? Even with RO water, I'd suggest against using gypsum when using a 100 mg/l SMB dose. If you're adding gypsum in addition to SMB, or if your source water already has a high sulfate concentration, I can easily see how 100 mg/l SMB would push you over the edge.

All of that said, I'm not certain whether the "dryness" you are speaking of is coming from an excess of sulfate. The malt character of non-LODO beer comes across to me as harshly bitter and cloyingly sweet at the same time. Lodo beer lacks both of these characteristics, and I can see how a straight up pilsner malt LODO beer could come across as very dry. What kind of recipe are you using? Have you considered adding 3-5% caramel malt in the grist, and/or some Munich or Vienna malt?
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Ancient Abbey
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Re: Lodo beers to dry

Postby Ancient Abbey » Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:33 pm

What kind of beers?
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Natebriscoe
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Re: RE: Re: Lodo beers to dry

Postby Natebriscoe » Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:33 pm

Ancient Abbey wrote:What kind of beers?

All styles. Belgian and British seem to be the worst. With a pilsner that's just off a bit. I have added just a pinch of gypsum to some beers. Guess just didn't have a good feel for how much sulfate smb added.
Natebriscoe
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Re: RE: Re: Lodo beers to dry

Postby Natebriscoe » Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:46 pm

Techbrau wrote:It is not straightforward to predict how much sulfate is being produced by the oxidation of sulfur compounds from SMB. It will vary considerably from system to system.

1 ppm sulfite, when fully oxidized, will actually contribute 1.2 ppm sulfate because each sulfite molecule gains the mass of one oxygen atom when it forms sulfate. SMB contributes both sulfite and sulfur dioxide to the mash, and 1 ppm sulfur dioxide, when oxidized, will contribute approx 1.5 ppm sulfate. However, the sulfur compounds are eliminated in other ways (such as boiling off, reacting with other molecules like chloramines, or even being a nutrient for yeast) so not every sulfite molecule you add will get oxidized into a sulfate molecule. It's also not easy to know whether the majority of the oxygen scavenging will be done by the sulfite or sulfur dioxide.

If you are very curious, I would suggest buying some sulfate test strips from amazon. You can use these to test the final concentration of sulfate in your wort/beer.

We tried to make the process in the paper as one-size-fits-all and foolproof as possible, but the truth is that LODO brewing is all about optimizing your own system. As you tighten it up by doing things like adding a mash cap, removing all leaks from your recirculation line, doughing-in from below, etc. you will be able to reduce your SMB dose to 50 mg/l or less.

Do you know what the sulfate concentration of your source water is? Even with RO water, I'd suggest against using gypsum when using a 100 mg/l SMB dose. If you're adding gypsum in addition to SMB, or if your source water already has a high sulfate concentration, I can easily see how 100 mg/l SMB would push you over the edge.

All of that said, I'm not certain whether the "dryness" you are speaking of is coming from an excess of sulfate. The malt character of non-LODO beer comes across to me as harshly bitter and cloyingly sweet at the same time. Lodo beer lacks both of these characteristics, and I can see how a straight up pilsner malt LODO beer could come across as very dry. What kind of recipe are you using? Have you considered adding 3-5% caramel malt in the grist, and/or some Munich or Vienna malt?

I like to use a blend of different malts in all my beers, Vienna, Munich, different crystals (tho less than 5%). Is the .38 grams pg the equivalent to 100mg/l?

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Big Monk
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Re: Lodo beers to dry

Postby Big Monk » Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:52 pm

((100 mg/l)/1000)/0.26=0.38 g/gal

80 mg/l=0.31 g/gal
75 mg/l=0.29 g/gal
60 mg/l=0.23 g/gal
50 mg/l=0.19 g/gal
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Techbrau
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Re: Lodo beers to dry

Postby Techbrau » Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:59 pm

I don't believe that Belgian or British beers are traditionally LODO. LODO brewing may be actually taking them into stylistically new territory.

I'd try upping the caramalts to 5-8%, or adjusting your mash. You can go as short as 15-20 minutes at the beta rest if you're step mashing.
If you always do what you've always done, then you'll always get what you've always gotten.
Natebriscoe
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Re: RE: Re: Lodo beers to dry

Postby Natebriscoe » Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:01 pm

Big Monk wrote:((100 mg/l)/1000)/0.26=0.38 g/gal

80 mg/l=0.31 g/gal
75 mg/l=0.29 g/gal
60 mg/l=0.23 g/gal
50 mg/l=0.19 g/gal

Thanks. My math doesn't work well with a toddler demanding 200% attention.
Natebriscoe
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Re: RE: Re: Lodo beers to dry

Postby Natebriscoe » Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:57 pm

Techbrau wrote:I don't believe that Belgian or British beers are traditionally LODO. LODO brewing may be actually taking them into stylistically new territory.

I'd try upping the caramalts to 5-8%, or adjusting your mash. You can go as short as 15-20 minutes at the beta rest if you're step mashing.

They are probably not as concerned with HSA. The ones I have done are very dry and after carbonation you almost can not taste the malts. Pre carb they actually tasted better if I remember right. There is some caramel in all of them, 3-5% maybe.

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