Acid Rest/Dough in Temp

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Brody
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Acid Rest/Dough in Temp

Postby Brody » Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:32 pm

I've read a few places now of the benefits of doughing in below Protein/Beta rest temps.

As I understand it, even though a rest at 95f to 113f isn't really used for pH reduction there could be other benefits to this? Palmer mentioned limit dextrinase which is a topic I haven't read up on much yet. In addition, it sounds like a rest at this temp would allow for no rush pH tests and adjustments.

Is this a good practice? And is their any harm or benefit from the time it would take to bring the mash up from ~100f to a protein rest using direct heat?
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Re: Acid Rest/Dough in Temp

Postby Bryan R » Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:28 am

I have doughed in at 95f quite a bit. You hydrate the grains and allow for pH adjustment if necessary before any enzymatic action takes place. You have to take note your temperature raise and alter your other rests based on that though. Its a more traditional mash schedule.
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Weizenberg
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Re: Acid Rest/Dough in Temp

Postby Weizenberg » Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:35 pm

Brody wrote:I've read a few places now of the benefits of doughing in below Protein/Beta rest temps.

As I understand it, even though a rest at 95f to 113f isn't really used for pH reduction there could be other benefits to this? Palmer mentioned limit dextrinase which is a topic I haven't read up on much yet. In addition, it sounds like a rest at this temp would allow for no rush pH tests and adjustments.

Is this a good practice? And is their any harm or benefit from the time it would take to bring the mash up from ~100f to a protein rest using direct heat?


It's great for making the enzymes more soluble and can have a positive effect on final attenuation. It can produce a slightly harsher tasting lager with some mash schedules, so it's not a per-se good thing.

For wheat beers it's pretty much "de rigueur" though.
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lhommedieu

Re: Acid Rest/Dough in Temp

Postby lhommedieu » Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:07 am

I've been taught to dough in with cold water at 1qt/lb and let the mash rest for a couple of hours. The water helps soften the husk and release the starch that's bound in the husk. I'll raise the temperature to 95F and hold there until the pH drops to 5.8 - then I'll pull the first decoction and take it through three stages in the decoction pot: protein rest, sacharification rest, boil. While this is happening the pH of the mash in the main pot may continue to drop, depending on the grain that it used. Add the decoction back to the main pot and check for pH; if it has not fallen to 5.2 you can adjust with a small amount of sauer maltz.
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Brody
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Re: Acid Rest/Dough in Temp

Postby Brody » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:08 am

Couple followups:

Nico - What mash schedules would a low dough in produce harshness and, out of curiosity, why? I'm debating on a 135f rest (targeting more body), then planning for a 30m Beta rest at 145f, and an hour Alpha at 158f at the moment.

Bryan - you mentioned adjusting the other rests, I'm guessing the 10-15m time it would take to raise the mash from 95f to either a 135f or 145f rest would lead you to slightly reduce the Beta rest?
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Re: Acid Rest/Dough in Temp

Postby Bryan R » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:27 am

Yea, it takes some playing with. Lets plan on 1c/min since that is the industry standard. So if one were ramping from 95 to 135, you are spending time in the "Ranges" before you actually hit the rest. So doughing in at a temp and rising to a step, would have different rest times. Lets say your dough in at 135 rest was 30, I might start a ramp rest at 135 at 20, since you are in the band from the 120's. The idea works the same with the other rests.
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Re: Acid Rest/Dough in Temp

Postby Weizenberg » Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:08 am

Brody wrote:Couple followups:

Nico - What mash schedules would a low dough in produce harshness and, out of curiosity, why? I'm debating on a 135f rest (targeting more body), then planning for a 30m Beta rest at 145f, and an hour Alpha at 158f at the moment.


It depends what malt you have. Malt with a low modification needs more work in the lower temperature ranges to break down cell walls to release the starches in the first place. A see a lot of homebrewers not understanding modification, picking schedules not really suited or unnecessary for the malt they have.

Biochemically, there is a lot going on in each temperature range. It's not just about the amylases. I am not qualified enough to explain you the details, but Ludwig Narziß treats all of this in ample detail with remarks to each possible decoction schedule (there are quite a few) in his book: Die Bierbrauerei, Vol 2

For well modified malts (as well as for other reasons), it is best to dough-in at 62C and go from there. Having well modified malts is an amazing thing. Make the best of it ;)
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Re: Acid Rest/Dough in Temp

Postby Das alte » Tue May 10, 2016 7:50 pm

As the other brewers mentioned, I too, dough in with cold water, usually at 60F. For one reason the pH meter is cal'd at 60F. Doughing in cold allows the decoction to be worked with for long periods of time, while enzymes are not doing too much in the mashtun. Perhaps, some brewers have performed a simple experiment? Fill ones pie hole with a bunch of white bread or some kind of crackers made from white starch and begin to chew the starch, allowing only saliva to moisten the mass. After about 15 minutes of chewing, the mass begins to taste sweet. At 98.6F and within 15 minutes starch sweetens up. The amylase in saliva is in malt. The same thing occurs at 95F. To save time when other brewers are in the brewery, I will dough the malt in at 95F. Soon as mash reaches 95F, the enzyme's clock begins to run and so does the lacto clock. When alone I do not do it, I am not in a hurry when it comes to producing beer.
Many years ago, I ruined 30 pounds of expensive, low modified malt. The malt was doughed in at 85F. The mash was rested for 3 hours to drop pH. When I went back to the brewery to get busy, I noticed a scent somewhat like pickle juice wafting from the brewery. The mashtun was hot and bubbling over. Acetobacter set in. Later, I discovered that the thermometer was out of kilter. I probably could have worked out the bugs and produced beer. However, I would have had to name it after long winded Belgiany, Frenchy words. Le Foof Saison DuPont Charolais would fit.
The term "well modified" is a very loose term. It is wiser to determine modification by using Kolbach or SNR. Malt on the high end of modification has less enzyme content. High protein, less sugar content.

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