Bavarian Cold Fermentation

How are you fermenting?

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Ancient Abbey
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Bavarian Cold Fermentation

Postby Ancient Abbey » Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:24 pm

Here is a really nice summary of a classic Bavarian cold fermentation profile.

https://edelstoffquest.wordpress.com/20 ... /#comments
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Bryan R
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Re: Bavarian Cold Fermentation

Postby Bryan R » Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:36 pm

I think its paramount everyone doesn't glass over this sentence so I am going to say it a few times....

Modern breweries use heavily accelerated fermentation techniques. These require considerable equipment for fermentation and analysis.

Again.

Modern breweries use heavily accelerated fermentation techniques. These require considerable equipment for fermentation and analysis.

Once last time for good measure.

Modern breweries use heavily accelerated fermentation techniques. These require considerable equipment for fermentation and analysis.

8-)
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Re: Bavarian Cold Fermentation

Postby Ancient Abbey » Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:38 pm

They also capture CO2 to be used to carbonate once the beer is done and they begin lagering. Since we have to spunden, we cannot correctly carbonate at warm temps, as it puts too much pressure on the yeast.
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Re: Bavarian Cold Fermentation

Postby Ancient Abbey » Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:59 am

This profile makes a truly world class helles.
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phishie
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Re: Bavarian Cold Fermentation

Postby phishie » Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:54 am

First: I've made two LODO lagers with this profile and both turned out excellent, the results are good and proven by others as well.

But I am curious; what is the purpose and value of the initial rise from 5C to 8C and the final decline from 8C to 5C? Is this just based on tradition?

Could we simplify the schedule by fermenting the beer at 8C from start to finish? How would a beer which was fermented from start to finish at 8C compare? Has anyone tried this already?

I'm asking this because if the "8C only" beer comes out very similar then it would greatly alleviate the fermentation chamber burden. I do already own and use a BrewPi but if an "8C only" beer comes out just as well then a simple chest freezer+cheap temp controller would suffice.

Caveat: I'm still assuming the lagering process would follow.
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Weizenberg
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Re: Bavarian Cold Fermentation

Postby Weizenberg » Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:15 pm

Cheers for the endorsement! :)

phishie wrote:But I am curious; what is the purpose and value of the initial rise from 5C to 8C and the final decline from 8C to 5C? Is this just based on tradition?


No, it's not because of "tradition"... Pitching low and the ensuing slow rise keeps unwanted by-products in check.

For 25l/5gal batches investing in a Maxi110 chiller is a good idea (for larger amounts get the 310 which has an ice-bank doulbe the size). I recirculate in the whirlpool through the heat-exchanger until the temperature of the wort coming out of the HE is close to the water temperature, then I flick a 3 way valve to direct the flow to the fermenter. This brings it pretty close to 5C.

If I don't hit the target temperature then there is nothing wrong with waiting a little until it is the right temperature. As a compromise, I would say 6C is the limit.

If the wort has a pH of 5.1 or thereabouts, then there is less risk from infection via thermobacter as well. That's probably one of the biggest risks when letting it stand overnight. Headspace oxygen ingress is also a concern but it doesn't happen that rapidly as we found out from some fermentation tests where we used only headspace oxygen.

Lowering huge amounts of wort to temperatures of 5C requires quite a bit of energy. No brewery would go to the trouble if it wouldn't be worth it.
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phishie
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Re: Bavarian Cold Fermentation

Postby phishie » Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:28 pm

Weizenberg wrote:Cheers for the endorsement! :)

phishie wrote:But I am curious; what is the purpose and value of the initial rise from 5C to 8C and the final decline from 8C to 5C? Is this just based on tradition?


No, it's not because of "tradition"... Pitching low and the ensuing slow rise keeps unwanted by-products in check.

For 25l/5gal batches investing in a Maxi110 chiller is a good idea (for larger amounts get the 310 which has an ice-bank doulbe the size). I recirculate in the whirlpool through the heat-exchanger until the temperature of the wort coming out of the HE is close to the water temperature, then I flick a 3 way valve to direct the flow to the fermenter. This brings it pretty close to 5C.

If I don't hit the target temperature then there is nothing wrong with waiting a little until it is the right temperature. As a compromise, I would say 6C is the limit.

If the wort has a pH of 5.1 or thereabouts, then there is less risk from infection via thermobacter as well. That's probably one of the biggest risks when letting it stand overnight. Headspace oxygen ingress is also a concern but it doesn't happen that rapidly as we found out from some fermentation tests where we used only headspace oxygen.

Lowering huge amounts of wort to temperatures of 5C requires quite a bit of energy. No brewery would go to the trouble if it wouldn't be worth it.


I actually got my last batch down to 5C without an issue, just took 3 attempts with process revisions to make it work. Would love to hear more detail about what unwanted by-products happen with a straight 8C fermentation vs aforementioned Bavarian Cold Fermentation schedule. 8C is itself pretty damn cold! Re: breweries following this process, do many anymore? I thought the consensus was most now have a warm fermentation schedule with specialized equipment to maintain quality in spite of that.
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Weizenberg
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Re: Bavarian Cold Fermentation

Postby Weizenberg » Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:47 pm

Why not try it out yourself and report back your impressions?

You can do both a few times and compare. Just make sure that the pitch temperature is the only variable that changed.

If you really want to know in detail, then you could send a few flasks to the lab for analysis.
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phishie
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Re: Bavarian Cold Fermentation

Postby phishie » Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:03 pm

Weizenberg wrote:Why not try it out yourself and report back your impressions?

You can do both a few times and compare. Just make sure that the pitch temperature is the only variable that changed.

If you really want to know in detail, then you could send a few flasks to the lab for analysis.


Certainly, you can always hope someone else has already done the experiment for you right?? :lol:

I have a batch going now, it's already ramped up to 8C, maybe I'll skip the ramp back down and see how it comes out. Not a full experiment but it's something.
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Weizenberg
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Re: Bavarian Cold Fermentation

Postby Weizenberg » Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:34 pm

Nothing wrong with finding what works best for ones capabilities. I am sure there are plenty of books in english treating the subject eloquently. That's universal to all good brewing.

If you are interested in fermentation at a more detailed level, there is one work of Annemüller that is translated into English as well. It's available via the VLB Berlin (just like Kunze).

One needs to look at these texts through a different lens though. Many of the schedules are for substantially larger systems. Substantially. Not just 9-18 bbl, much larger.

So for us the classic approaches seem to fit best.

I therefore wonder why you don't want to just fall into the wisdom of times past and accept the method? Especially since you have the capabilities chilling the wort to that temperature.

If you are curious and are willing to experiment a bit, I'd certainly welcome your reporting back here and would read it with great interest ;)

To really explain the full workings it would take someone more competent than myself. There are a few people on this forum that have a very good grasp of the nitty gritty when it comes to yeast. Some even work professionally with it.

In the end, it strongly depends on finding what one is happy with, armed with all the knowledge and tools at ones disposal.

For anyone considering this professionally I would strongly suggest proper training anyways. Handling volumes of meaningful proportions for commercial purposes is quite challenging when self taught ;)
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