Cold Fermentation method keeps failing me (stalling)

How are you fermenting?

Moderator: Brandon

User avatar
Nick_D
Apprentice Brewer
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:58 am

Re: Cold Fermentation method keeps failing me (stalling)

Postby Nick_D » Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:39 pm

Weizenberg wrote:I cannot tell what schedule to use. Eventually one ends up at -1C in classic cold.

It may go a little faster and clear up quicker if you set the lower limit to +1.5C - I'd drop the temperature veeeery slowly. Like 0.2C per day max.

You need to find what works for you and your setup.


Thanks. I think I'll be super cautious and go 0.1 per day, just to be sure ;)
User avatar
Nick_D
Apprentice Brewer
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:58 am

Re: Cold Fermentation method keeps failing me (stalling)

Postby Nick_D » Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:45 pm

Here is my yeast for my next brew. On the left, freshly propagated with DME, yeast nutrient and constant aeration from a small amount of slurry collected from the last brew. On the right, harvested slurry from last brew under beer.
So, assuming 1.2 x 10⁹ cells/ml, that puts me in the ball park for pitch rate on a 12 -ish plato beer ? Does this look/sound about right ?

Image
Last edited by Nick_D on Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Weizenberg
German Brewing
Posts: 838
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:11 pm
Contact:

Re: Cold Fermentation method keeps failing me (stalling)

Postby Weizenberg » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:29 pm

Nick_D wrote:
Weizenberg wrote:I cannot tell what schedule to use. Eventually one ends up at -1C in classic cold.

It may go a little faster and clear up quicker if you set the lower limit to +1.5C - I'd drop the temperature veeeery slowly. Like 0.2C per day max.

You need to find what works for you and your setup.


Thanks. I think I'll be super cautious and go 0.1 per day, just to be sure ;)


In the begin the drop can be a bit quicker. Once approaching 2C I'd be very careful. It's a very slow gradual and long drop.
The Quest for Edelstoff - http://edelstoffquest.wordpress.com
User avatar
Weizenberg
German Brewing
Posts: 838
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:11 pm
Contact:

Re: Cold Fermentation method keeps failing me (stalling)

Postby Weizenberg » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:55 pm

Nick_D wrote:Here is my yeast for my next brew. On the left, freshly propagated with DME, yeast nutrient and constant aeration from a small amount of slurry collected from the last brew. On the right, harvested slurry from last brew under beer.
So, assuming 1.2 x 10⁹ cells/ml, that puts me in the ball park for pitch rate on a 12 -ish plato beer ? Does this look/sound about right ?



maybe this helps?

https://edelstoffquest.wordpress.com/20 ... workforce/
The Quest for Edelstoff - http://edelstoffquest.wordpress.com
User avatar
Nick_D
Apprentice Brewer
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:58 am

Re: Cold Fermentation method keeps failing me (stalling)

Postby Nick_D » Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:03 am

Weizenberg wrote:
Nick_D wrote:Here is my yeast for my next brew. On the left, freshly propagated with DME, yeast nutrient and constant aeration from a small amount of slurry collected from the last brew. On the right, harvested slurry from last brew under beer.
So, assuming 1.2 x 10⁹ cells/ml, that puts me in the ball park for pitch rate on a 12 -ish plato beer ? Does this look/sound about right ?



maybe this helps?

https://edelstoffquest.wordpress.com/20 ... workforce/


Absolutely ! A treasure trove of info there, thanks Nico. I had a good read. Drauflassen sounds interesting, but also potentially tricky to get right also with timings. Similar to the "Hybrid starter" idea i read about in another thread here, where one adds their yeast to 10% of their batch, lets that reach high krausen, and then pitch.
I'm comfortable with my understanding of pitch rates, but as I am not using a conventional stir plate, I'm unsure of my propagation levels from my starters. My only means of measurement is to measure the dense, settled slurry from either a starter, or harvested yeast cake. My fear is over-pitching, if I pitch both flasks of slurry into a 12 plato beer.
I read elsewhere on your blog that you pitch 0.5 litres of slurry per hectolitre, which would be 95 ml of slurry for a 19 litre batch.... I've read other sources that encourage 1L per hectolitre. Just wondering on a ball park opinion if visually, assuming the yeast are healthy and highly viable, I would be grossly over-pitching, or if that amount (approx 340 ml dense slurry) anecdotally speaking, looks about right.
Thanks!
User avatar
Weizenberg
German Brewing
Posts: 838
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:11 pm
Contact:

Re: Cold Fermentation method keeps failing me (stalling)

Postby Weizenberg » Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:47 am

0.5-0.7l per hl is a figure from Ludwig Narziss' book, Abriss der Bierbrauerei.

This is a very inaccurate figure though because it strongly depends on how one defines this. A while back Abbey recommended this tool, and I'm a happy user since

http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitc ... alculator/

Maybe you want to give it a go.

TBH with lagers fermented cold, I'd rather over-pitch a little, than under-pitch. Thus said, if not getting the cell count right is something that really bothers you, then you can always get a microscope and count them yourself ;)

I'm happy with ranges and slowly fine-tuning things to suit me over time.
The Quest for Edelstoff - http://edelstoffquest.wordpress.com
User avatar
Nick_D
Apprentice Brewer
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:58 am

Re: Cold Fermentation method keeps failing me (stalling)

Postby Nick_D » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:35 am

Weizenberg wrote:
Nick_D wrote:Thanks! I certainly will. I'm brewing beers for my Oktoberfest party, which will now probably be a "Dezemberfest" party... :| Over ambitious perhaps.


You could try a classic accelerated scheduled, as published by Annemeuller:

https://edelstoffquest.wordpress.com/20 ... n-21-days/

I'm currently doing my Festbiers with this one.

Beware though, the jury is still out whether it's good enough for my purposes. I like the idea of reducing by-products with cold fermentation first, then conditioning warm.

I've currently 2 kegs at 10 Celsius in the lager chamber and they should enter their final code phase once I'm back from Munich end of this week.

Hope this helps. Best


I've decided to try the classic accelerated method for my current brew (pils), as referenced on your blog. My FFT EVG only made it to 76%. Not really good enough for a pils or helles where I want 83% + EVG. Perhaps I need to lengthen the 30 min rest at 62C to 1 hour? so 60 min @ 62C > 60 min @ 72C.
I wonder if my mash thickness is hurting my EVG %. To account for the infusion to raise to 72C, I mash the first rest of 62C around 2.8 liters/kg, then infuse boiling water to get up to 72C, which takes me to around 4 liters/kg. I'll try the 60/60 and see if it improves things. Grist was simple. 97% pils (with acidulated malt to reach P.H 5.4 in mash first rest) and 3% carapils. Both Weyermann. And this time with yeast nutrients!

I have been using RO water, which I possibly failed to mention, and might explain some of my yeast struggles, especially without nutrients previously.....

As this beer is somewhat of a sacrificial lamb (EVG not making the grade) I figured it's a good time to try the classic accelerated :)
User avatar
Weizenberg
German Brewing
Posts: 838
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:11 pm
Contact:

Re: Cold Fermentation method keeps failing me (stalling)

Postby Weizenberg » Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:51 am

When you infuse with hot water, you get a very fast rise and probably scorch some enzymes as well.

You are also lacking a gradual rise through the temperature range from 62 to 72C during which the enzymes are still active.

A difference in 10 minutes makes quite a difference in the beta range. I would mash at 62C for 40 minutes instead.

It's no good mashing longer than necessary either. So I'd work my way up.

Then there could be issues with how the yeast is handled.

Your thermometer is calibrated yearly, right?
The Quest for Edelstoff - http://edelstoffquest.wordpress.com
User avatar
Nick_D
Apprentice Brewer
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:58 am

Re: Cold Fermentation method keeps failing me (stalling)

Postby Nick_D » Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:36 pm

Weizenberg wrote:When you infuse with hot water, you get a very fast rise and probably scorch some enzymes as well.

You are also lacking a gradual rise through the temperature range from 62 to 72C during which the enzymes are still active.

A difference in 10 minutes makes quite a difference in the beta range. I would mash at 62C for 40 minutes instead.

It's no good mashing longer than necessary either. So I'd work my way up.

Then there could be issues with how the yeast is handled.

Your thermometer is calibrated yearly, right?


Perhaps I will conduct some mash tests using small quantities, mashed in an insulated coffee/soup holder. Trying 30,40 50 min etc at 62C (plus of course the rest at 72C) Then after a boil, conduct fast ferment tests to see where I wind up.

My thermometers for fermentation are spot on (STC-1000 probes). Calibrated them just a while ago, and re-tested the other day in an ice bath. All good. My mashing thermometers are less wonderful. I have a bi-metal style one used for milk frothing, goes in 1C increments from -10C - 110C, so it's easy to read. I calibrate that with boiling water, and ice bath, and also test it against the STC-1000 which is a known quantity. Seems reasonable. Also have a glass lab thermometer with green liquid in it. This reads +1C high consistently, but is otherwise accurate. Also a crappy $10 digital meat thermometer, which is junk and I never bother with. I use the other two in combination to make sure I'm there or thereabouts.

P.S any news on your Oktberfest brews done using the classic accelerated method? Is the Jury still deliberating? (i.e lagering)

thanks!
User avatar
Weizenberg
German Brewing
Posts: 838
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:11 pm
Contact:

Re: Cold Fermentation method keeps failing me (stalling)

Postby Weizenberg » Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:54 pm

Oh, they are ready and beautiful!

This time I used WLP820 -- which made them a bit sweeter than with WLP838.

However, the yeast hasn't fully settled yet. So I'll probably filter one keg or will Umdruecken. I still need to get a good grasp on filtering (it's very hard actually), so it'll probably be that :)

Bear in mind that there are many other reasons than just mash which would cause the yeast to not attenuate fully.
The Quest for Edelstoff - http://edelstoffquest.wordpress.com

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest