Cold Fermentation method keeps failing me (stalling)

How are you fermenting?

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Techbrau
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Re: Cold Fermentation method keeps failing me (stalling)

Postby Techbrau » Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:36 pm

Don't bother doughing in lower than 62c. There's no advantage and the nasty oxidative enzymes are more active at the lower temps. Just add 1-2 grams of wyeast nutrient at the end of the boil.
If you always do what you've always done, then you'll always get what you've always gotten.
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Nick_D
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Re: Cold Fermentation method keeps failing me (stalling)

Postby Nick_D » Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:44 pm

Techbrau wrote:Don't bother doughing in lower than 62c. There's no advantage and the nasty oxidative enzymes are more active at the lower temps. Just add 1-2 grams of wyeast nutrient at the end of the boil.


Thanks Tech, done deal. I've got some yeast nutrient on the way for this next batch. Inching closer to glory.
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Weizenberg
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Re: Cold Fermentation method keeps failing me (stalling)

Postby Weizenberg » Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:19 pm

I often use yeast nutrients. It's more convenient than doughing in thick and all that ;)
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Weizenberg
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Re: Cold Fermentation method keeps failing me (stalling)

Postby Weizenberg » Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:22 pm

Nick_D wrote:
Weizenberg wrote:Zinc!

One could dough in lower to encourage its production.

Depends on your raw materials.


Mmm yes zinc! I have read of German breweries 'accidentally' leaving a galvanised bolt or two in the mash tun....

I might have to dough in super thick water/grain to allow space to infuse to 62C then 72C.



1:2 to 1:2.5 (kg:l) water to grain ratio
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Bilsch
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Re: Cold Fermentation method keeps failing me (stalling)

Postby Bilsch » Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:11 pm

Something tells me in my case there may be more to it than just zinc. I have dosed many batches with an average of 0.074mg/l of ZnSO4*H2O and saw little improvement in fermentation performance. One recent beer I even pitched 5 very fresh packs of yeast and the result was the same sluggish under attenuated ferment that I had to keep bumping up the temperature to save from stalling.
I’m sure the water here has a big part to play as it comes from mountain snowpack a few miles down the road. It is devoid of pretty much everything and it gets an RO polishing to boot. Most other municipal water sources contain nitrates which might actually beneficial to yeast health. Maybe there is varying nitrogen content in the malt lots based on how it was grown? This residual nitrogen content is certainly a factor in cider fermentation depending on how the trees were fertilized so why not barley?
Anyway these experiences are anecdotal evidence at best but nothing made much improvement in yeast performance until adding the nutrients. It might be the synergy of the nitrogen and zinc or other things in there, I don't know for sure. I can tell you though my latest batch of helles on 2206 with the WY magic powder is marching strong at 7c and is one healthy ferment.

Thanks to Bryan and the short course at TUR for this nutrient tip. Also many thanks to the members here on the inspiration for the glorious malt bill:
80.8% Pima, 9.7% Vima, 5.1% Muma, 2% C25, 2.4% AM
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Weizenberg
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Re: Cold Fermentation method keeps failing me (stalling)

Postby Weizenberg » Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:42 pm

Agreed. Nutrients are the simplest solution. For large outfits it can become quite expensive, but what do we care!

FYI one can influence FAN with mash as well (dough in at 35C). It won't be as effective as nutrients.
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Bilsch
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Re: Cold Fermentation method keeps failing me (stalling)

Postby Bilsch » Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:42 pm

Weizenberg wrote:FYI one can influence FAN with mash as well (dough in at 35C). It won't be as effective as nutrients.


Maybe FAN is the missing piece to the puzzle of why yeast performance dropped after switching to Lodo brewing. I had always before doughed in at lower temperatures either acid rest or protein rest. Along with the new process came hochkurz mash and never starting lower then 61c. Interesting.
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Nick_D
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Re: Cold Fermentation method keeps failing me (stalling)

Postby Nick_D » Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:13 pm

Sure wish I'd thought of the nutrient thing prior to my recent brew..... now I'm nervous :P It may become another sink dumper... but hopefully not! I guess if it was easy, everyone would be brewing amazing German lagers. Nothing worth doing is ever easy, as they say !
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Ancient Abbey
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Re: Cold Fermentation method keeps failing me (stalling)

Postby Ancient Abbey » Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:32 pm

You'll get FAN in most good yeast nutrient, too. However, it's very unlikely that FAN is the issue. Yeast will absorb ammonia as a nutrient (DAP), but it is likely bound to chlorine to form chloramines long before it comes out of your tap.

You also have to remember, that zinc limitation is mostly a concern when pitching cone to cone for many generations. Yeast grown in an all-malt starter will have access to plenty of zinc.

Have you all tried letting the ferment ramp up to 8-9C around day 3-5? This is still acceptable as a cold fermentation profile. Narziss warm is 10-11C.
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Nick_D
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Re: Cold Fermentation method keeps failing me (stalling)

Postby Nick_D » Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:03 pm

Ancient Abbey wrote:You'll get FAN in most good yeast nutrient, too. However, it's very unlikely that FAN is the issue. Yeast will absorb ammonia as a nutrient (DAP), but it is likely bound to chlorine to form chloramines long before it comes out of your tap.

You also have to remember, that zinc limitation is mostly a concern when pitching cone to cone for many generations. Yeast grown in an all-malt starter will have access to plenty of zinc.

Have you all tried letting the ferment ramp up to 8-9C around day 3-5? This is still acceptable as a cold fermentation profile. Narziss warm is 10-11C.


This batch accidentally got up to 8.4C by the end of day 2, instead of the intended 8C, and remained there until 50% attenuation. I only got the beer down to 6.5C by the time I transferred. I'm leaving it at that temp until it finishes out. I feel paranoid about dropping further as it seems to be just crawling along in the keg. Then again, I think it only really had 2.5 points of gravity to drop once I transferred it, so maybe that's normal. I re-checked the FFT, and it looks around 1.0115 ish. I tested a sample of the beer sitting on top of the collected yeast cake, and it's down to 1.012 after only a couple of days. Still tastes cloying, but has a little ways to go yet, and it's still very young. Hopefully the spunding beer is following suit.

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