Your experiences with SMB and different yeast strains.

How are you fermenting?

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Ancient Abbey
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Re: Your experiences with SMB and different yeast strains.

Postby Ancient Abbey » Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:37 am

I still struggle with malt conditioning. The malt smells amazing once wet, so I know molecules are leaving the malt. How much, and is it enough to worry about remains to be measured. I'm back and forth on whether SMB in the conditioning water is beneficial.
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Weizenberg
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Re: Your experiences with SMB and different yeast strains.

Postby Weizenberg » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:54 am

Its most likely degassed since brewing liquor is already used at this stage. I would suggest minimal amounts, just enough to neutralise 0.5 - 0.8 mg/l
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Ancient Abbey
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Re: Your experiences with SMB and different yeast strains.

Postby Ancient Abbey » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:06 am

I will add to the OP that I suspect our brewing salts have a role in how we identify whether a strain "works" with SMB as well. My workhorse is WLP835 (Andech's), and I really like how it handles sulfur. However, I just made a Pilsner using it, and to accent the hops I used CaSO4 in place of CaCl. This batch is a sulfur bomb. I suspect the impact is simply a product of the sulfate-sulfite exchange pathway, but I can see someone using this for the first time and thinking it throws a lot of sulfur, when that's not always the case.
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lupulus
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Re: Your experiences with SMB and different yeast strains.

Postby lupulus » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:47 am

Ancient Abbey wrote:I will add to the OP that I suspect our brewing salts have a role in how we identify whether a strain "works" with SMB as well. My workhorse is WLP835 (Andech's), and I really like how it handles sulfur. However, I just made a Pilsner using it, and to accent the hops I used CaSO4 in place of CaCl. This batch is a sulfur bomb. I suspect the impact is simply a product of the sulfate-sulfite exchange pathway, but I can see someone using this for the first time and thinking it throws a lot of sulfur, when that's not always the case.


What were your S(P)MB and CaSO4 dose for this pils?
The key question is what was the relative contribution of sulfate from SMB and from CaSO4.

I have saved in my list of untested hypothesis that the flavor contribution of sulfites may be much higher than that of sulfates (or is it my tasting bias...). So when adding gypsum to your water and employing lodo methods, a strong reducing environment during fermentation may lead to conversion of some of the sulfates to sulfites (as intermediaries to the synthesis of sulfur containing aminoacids); and remain as sulfites in fresh beer converting back to sulfates as beer gets older.
This hypothesis may be testable with a sulfite kit.
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Ancient Abbey
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Re: Your experiences with SMB and different yeast strains.

Postby Ancient Abbey » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:36 pm

I used 2 g of gypsum and 1 g SMB for a 25L final volume batch. I "generally" use ~15-25 mg/L during my process. Strips don't give an exact value, as you know.
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lupulus
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Re: Your experiences with SMB and different yeast strains.

Postby lupulus » Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:40 pm

2g gypsum has 1411.2 mg sulfate
1g SMB will convert to 1010.6 mg sulfate
Assuming 35L of initial wort, you have a bit less than 70mg/L (70ppm) sulfate combined

It is certainly not enough to create a sulfate bomb

To me, and it seems you are experiencing it too, when the sulfur is in a sulfite form, it is much more potent. If you do not mind sharing the evolution of the beer over time, I will be really interested. I have been using between 0.5g and 1g of SMB or PMB without gypsum and still noticing the sulfur. It is not offensive and the beer is very good but I notice it.

I have a lot of work now but I will be searching the literature for sulfur content in malt to assess the relative contribution of this source of sulfur, and taste threshold of sulfite vs sulfate.

BTW - have not forgotten your question to the Weihenstephan brewers. I emailed them and I am waiting for an answer.
All the best!
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Re: Your experiences with SMB and different yeast strains.

Postby Techbrau » Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:55 pm

Lupulus, how are you fermenting nowadays? I've gone back to pitching at 9c, fermenting at 10c, and rising to 12c near the end where I also spund. It strikes a good balance between speed, flavor, and residual sulfur level. My yeast is also WLP835
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Re: Your experiences with SMB and different yeast strains.

Postby Ancient Abbey » Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:11 pm

I will add, I have been trying the new lid for my brew-buckets, with the PRV. This pilsner was fermented under ~2 psi of pressure. The Classic Cold fermentation may not be appropriate under pressure and held in more sulfur. However, I have several helles fermented the same way without the gypsum and they don't have this much noticeable sulfur.
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Re: Your experiences with SMB and different yeast strains.

Postby lupulus » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:12 pm

Techbrau wrote:Lupulus, how are you fermenting nowadays? I've gone back to pitching at 9c, fermenting at 10c, and rising to 12c near the end where I also spund. It strikes a good balance between speed, flavor, and residual sulfur level. My yeast is also WLP835


Very similar actually. I chill wort to about 1C, and leaving the cold break behind transfer to the primary pitching at the same time I transfer. By the time the process is over, I am at about 7-8C. I increase to 9C after the first day and to 10C after the second day, leaving it at 10C until I am 1 to 1.5P from projected final gravity. I then transfer to a keg and increase it to 12C. I leave it at 12C for 4 days and then gradually decrease to 0.5C lagering temp while spunding. For a doppelbock I stay a bit longer at 12c with spunding to make sure it reaches max pressure (final gravity), and then I start lagering.

I was doing exclusively Augustiner yeast last year, but for bocks it gets too alcoholic for my taste, so I switched to Ayinger for bocks, and have been alternating Ayinger and Augustiner doing four brews of each.

Ayinger has made an almost perferct bock, and Augustiner continues to deliver for Helles, Pils, Fest and Märzen. Dunkel is a toss up but may go with Ayinger.

All my kegs are full now, so I am probably do another bock with Ayinger and put it to sleep for a while, continuing just with Augustiner.

Cheers,
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Re: Your experiences with SMB and different yeast strains.

Postby caedus » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:08 pm

What is your chilling method Lupulis?

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