Avoiding the Transfer before Spunding

How are you fermenting?

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Brody
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Re: Avoiding the Transfer before Spunding

Postby Brody » Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:27 pm

The question is wether this method will cause autolysis and the main variable there would be if I'm leaving too much yeast behind. The indicator I have that I'm ok is that the size of the yeast cake in my mason jar seems about normal. In addition, I'll be pulling off more yeast that settles as I take my samples for gravity/taste.

I'll keep you posted if I notice anything off with this batch but it will likely be inconclusive since this isn't the standard helles recipe I've been using but rather that bastardization of a bock.

The fermentation does seem to be taking it's time but that could be do to the high gravity. The beer's 2weeks on since brewday at the moment and only at 67% attenuation (1.064 down to 1.021), I've been getting over 80 with the paper helles and transferring. So lack of rousing may be a variable as well... but not really used to high gravity lagers.
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Weizenberg
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Re: Avoiding the Transfer before Spunding

Postby Weizenberg » Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:26 pm

It is best to carry only as much yeast as necessary into secondary.

But you need enough yeast for secondary to complete successfully. The concentration of yeast in suspension when going into secondary should be between 12..15*10^6 cells per ml.

Some breweries introduce fresh yeast at this stage. Often two yeast strains are used, a flocculant (Bruchhefe) and a non-flocculant one (Staubhefe). Well known mixing ratios of these two are 2:1 or 3:1.

A simple way to keep track of your cells is by filling the beer into a measuring cylinder and record the height of yeast sediment after 24 hrs.

Hope this helps
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VolgaGebietDeutscher
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Re: Avoiding the Transfer before Spunding

Postby VolgaGebietDeutscher » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:08 am

Ancient Abbey: what vessel do you use for primary and also what methods do you use to transfer to secondary to minimize O2 uptake?
Techbrau
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Re: Avoiding the Transfer before Spunding

Postby Techbrau » Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:26 pm

I'll let AA chime in about his fermenters, but most of us around here are transferring to a keg as the secondary with about 4 gravity points (or 1% fermentable extract) remaing, making sure to fill it 100% of the way to the brim. It helps to cut the gas dip tube shorter when doing that, to prevent liquid from flowing out the gas post if you want to connect a spunding valve. Some of us purge the keg with CO2 before transferring, others don't. The active yeast will provide natural carbonation but have the nice side effect of very quickly scavenging any O2 that was picked up along the way.
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Ancient Abbey
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Re: Avoiding the Transfer before Spunding

Postby Ancient Abbey » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:28 pm

VolgaGebietDeutscher wrote:Ancient Abbey: what vessel do you use for primary and also what methods do you use to transfer to secondary to minimize O2 uptake?


I use brew-buckets with the domed lids and 3" TC on top. I also adapted the valve at the bottom with a 3/8" to 1.5" TC fitting. I recently purchased stainless connectors for my kegs, and they are much more precision made than the plastic ones. I use those with a jumper line to umdrucken, and I haven't noticed any air bubbles in the line since doing so. I replace the o-rings regularly and make sure to use keg lube on them before attaching the connectors to ensure as air tight of a connection as possible. It is quite common for a worn o-ring and plastic connector to develop leaks and create a venturi for introducing oxygen on transfers. Same for the MFL threads if you don't tighten them down.

If you wait too long, then you can use 1 tsp of table sugar when you transfer from primary to secondary. This is enough to scavenge any oxygen picked up from the transfer. If you umdrucken, though, you don't have this luxury, so make sure your connections are tight(!).
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Re: Avoiding the Transfer before Spunding

Postby VolgaGebietDeutscher » Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:08 pm

Ancient Abby, I have used glass primaries due to issues with plastic buckets & leaking spigots, however, I may switch back in order to avoid the hassle of siphoning and associated potential of O2 pickup. Where do you purchase the 3'' domed lids with TC on top. I am looki g for a way to take quick and easy gravity readings and this might help. Any pics you could send would be helpful as well. Thanks!
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Ancient Abbey
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Re: Avoiding the Transfer before Spunding

Postby Ancient Abbey » Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:51 pm

- The best do the basics better -
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Re: Avoiding the Transfer before Spunding

Postby VolgaGebietDeutscher » Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:23 pm

Thank you Sir! Very much appreciated!
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Ancient Abbey
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Re: Avoiding the Transfer before Spunding

Postby Ancient Abbey » Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:29 pm

bitte schön
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Futur
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Re: Avoiding the Transfer before Spunding

Postby Futur » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:54 pm

Just reviving this thread again. Is there any set time frame as to when we can expect the effects of autolysis to take hold?

The reason I ask this is I plan to complete primary fermentation under pressure (14psi) and maturation in a 25L keg using the Cold fermentation - warm maturation schedule without transfer for a total of 20 days. Filtration and cold storage will then follow.

I see that Kunze is very specific regarding the quick removal of primary fermentation yeast which will impact overall beer quality. Looking over his suggested fermentation schedules, he seems to indicate that damage can be done within the suggested fermentation and maturation timeline of ~20 days.

I'd be interested to see what others have experienced regarding beer quality regarding pressure fermentation and maturation in a single vessel without transfer.

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