Issues with the process

Lagering methods and times

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caedus
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Re: Issues with the process

Postby caedus » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:43 pm

I believe it is H2S, because it definitely doesn't smell of sulfites. It has that raunchy egg aroma.

I also cut my SO4 level down to whatever the sulfite gives me (~30ppm?), because I found some sources saying excess levels could lead to more H2S being formed.
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lupulus
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Re: Issues with the process

Postby lupulus » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:15 pm

caedus wrote:I believe it is H2S, because it definitely doesn't smell of sulfites. It has that raunchy egg aroma.

I also cut my SO4 level down to whatever the sulfite gives me (~30ppm?), because I found some sources saying excess levels could lead to more H2S being formed.

There is a paper by Wurzbacher that may give you some tips. The take home message was: The higher the yeast count, the lower the sulfur; the higher the oxigenation at pitching, the lower the sulfur. My oxygenation is very constant, but when I am using the first generation of a yeast, it always takes longer and it always kicks more sulfur, by the third generation it takes 5-6 days from pitching to spunding and it does not throw sulfur (this is an unscientific observation when I open the fermentation fridge BTW). Yes, most likely it is because I am not pitching as much yeast in the first generation vs the second, although some disagree and blame it on the first generation being sluggish...
Cheers.
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Re: Issues with the process

Postby caedus » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:11 pm

Fair points, but in the past I have been pitching ~100B cells per gallon, which is around 3m cells/ml/plato. I also oxygenate to 8-10 ppm oxygen immediately after pitch.

I am going to try Techbrau's pitching rate and see how that works out, I have a wort that is currently cold crashing in the conical @7C, going to pitch when I get home. Tried a few different things this time, hopefully all goes well.
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Ancient Abbey
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Re: Issues with the process

Postby Ancient Abbey » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:11 am

caedus wrote:I also cut my SO4 level down to whatever the sulfite gives me (~30ppm?), because I found some sources saying excess levels could lead to more H2S being formed.

What sources?
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Ancient Abbey
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Re: Issues with the process

Postby Ancient Abbey » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:36 am

lupulus wrote:There is a paper by Wurzbacher that may give you some tips. The take home message was: The higher the yeast count, the lower the sulfur; the higher the oxigenation at pitching, the lower the sulfur. My oxygenation is very constant, but when I am using the first generation of a yeast, it always takes longer and it always kicks more sulfur, by the third generation it takes 5-6 days from pitching to spunding and it does not throw sulfur (this is an unscientific observation when I open the fermentation fridge BTW). Yes, most likely it is because I am not pitching as much yeast in the first generation vs the second, although some disagree and blame it on the first generation being sluggish...
Cheers.

Interesting. Here is what Annemüller claims. The rules for sulfur dioxide versus hydrogen sulfide are different, often inversely related. Depends on what one means when they say sulfur.
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Weizenberg
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Re: Issues with the process

Postby Weizenberg » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:48 am

I ferment in ZKVs

That gives me the opportunity to dump the yeast twice before transfer (0.5-0.8% from Vsend)

Pitch at 5C, main temp 8-9C, transfer at 3C (lager cellar temp).

My cell count is 20-25 * 10^6 cells perl ml

O2 is at 6-9mgl

Yeast is currently directly from Weihenstephan. W43/70, W109 or W105

FYI i am currently testing new fermentation equipment. A bit too early to talk about results, but the B&K is a dream to work with.

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Big Monk
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Re: Issues with the process

Postby Big Monk » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:06 am

Ancient Abbey wrote:
caedus wrote:I also cut my SO4 level down to whatever the sulfite gives me (~30ppm?), because I found some sources saying excess levels could lead to more H2S being formed.

What sources?


He might be talking about some of the dialogue over at the AHA following the Brulosophy experiment on Low Oxygen brewing. There were some quotes (in and out of context) from Dr. Bamforth about his experiences at Bass.
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caedus
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Re: Issues with the process

Postby caedus » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:23 am

I will have to find them again, but the gist of it was that the metabolism of sulfate produces SO2 and H2S, so reducing sulfate reduced the the sulfur compounds. I found some cool tests used in the wine industry for measuring sulfide production, along with sulfide test strips. However, the strips aren't nearly accurate enough for testing.

@Weizen - how much dead space is in the keg? Do you modify the shanks at all, or just use it normally and push yeast and trub out via the beer out?
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Weizenberg
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Re: Issues with the process

Postby Weizenberg » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:54 am

No dead-space. They are perfect. You can easily fill them 100% without issue.

http://www.schaefer-container-systems.c ... steel-keg/

PS: They have a US distributor. Mine come in a 20l size which is a drop-in replacement for the corny's.

At the moment I just push the yeast out. Takes a few go's. I figured it's much better to get the beer of the yeast eventually. So it's either filter, umdruecken or, just flush it out but that requires a full length tube.

I haven't decided yet what's best for me.
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Cavpilot2000
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Re: Issues with the process

Postby Cavpilot2000 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:04 pm

I know it kinda violates pure low O2 principle, but I need my Pils to be presentation-ready before natural process will allow, so the other day I did two things to get me there.
One, I replaced the stock dip tube with a cut one. I did it with gas going into the keg but with the PRV open (I tried it once with the PRV closed and was rewarded with a beer fountain). It may have introduced a small amount of O2,but I think if a slight overpressure condition is enough to keep chemical agents out of Abramstanks, it's good enough to keep outside air out of my keg.
Anyway, after that, and still with gas flowing, I opened the lid and added a gelatin clarifying dose (using preboiled water for the gelatin solution and very gently lowering the measuring cup into the beer so as to not "pour" it through free air).
Then I cold crashed it.
I'll see tonight (48 hours later) what effect this two-pronged approach had.

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