Bottling a lodo helles

Filtering, fining, bottling, etc

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Big Monk
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Re: Bottling a lodo helles

Postby Big Monk » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:31 pm

Ancient Abbey wrote:I had good success with Helles with 10-25 ppm sulfite remaining from fermentation last for 4-5 months in the bottle. I bottled one in April and it still scored a 42 and won gold in August.


So you bottle with no additional protection besides residual sulfites?
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Bottling a lodo helles

Postby Ancient Abbey » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:48 pm

Counter pressure filler, wet lined bottles, beer flush to remove sanitizer, CO2 flush and cap on foam. No yeast trials yet.
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Re: Bottling a lodo helles

Postby Nick_D » Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:00 pm

Glad I found this thread.
My lodo hefeweizen is nearing bottling, if I'm to bottle it with residual extract/bottle spund. FFT was 1.011 (OG 1.050). I figure bottling at 1.015 will get me the carbonation I'm after. Does this number sound right ?

Beer was batch sparged, and mash water was treated with 20 mg/l SMB (to avoid excess sulphites with the hefe yeast), and 60 mg/l ascorbic acid.

Is this the preferred method people would suggest for bottling ? In the past (before I was oxygen conscious) I would have left the beer on the yeast cake for 3 weeks, then bottled with bulk priming. Good for cleaning up fermentation products. Terrible for O2 damage. Wondering if the beer will condition properly in the bottles if bottled with residual extract.

Sorry to crash a helles thread with a Hefe question :\
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Re: Bottling a lodo helles

Postby Weizenberg » Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:22 pm

The proper way to do it, is with speise. That's bottle conditioning but with saved wort instead of priming sugar.

I still do all wheat beers this way and I used to do my lagers this way too.

Usually one ferments to finish, waits a day, then bottle.
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Re: Bottling a lodo helles

Postby Nick_D » Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:50 pm

Weizenberg wrote:The proper way to do it, is with speise. That's bottle conditioning but with saved wort instead of priming sugar.

I still do all wheat beers this way and I used to do my lagers this way too.

Usually one ferments to finish, waits a day, then bottle.


Unfortunately I didn't save any wort..... however I certainly could knock up a mini mash on the stove to cover it. I have some munich and pilsner malt on hand. 2.5 liters at 1.048 should do it.

Would I mix this in to the main fermenting vessel and then bottle after fg is reached (probably kick up a lot of settled yeast), or dose the bottles individually ?

Is this method preferable to bottle spunding do you think ? It seems a little more fail safe with giving the beer more time on the yeast to do its thing.

Thanks again !
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Re: Bottling a lodo helles

Postby bjanat » Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:02 pm

This one is helpful for getting the carbonation right http://www.brewersfriend.com/gyle-and-k ... alculator/


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Re: Bottling a lodo helles

Postby Weizenberg » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:37 pm

Nick_D wrote:
Weizenberg wrote:The proper way to do it, is with speise. That's bottle conditioning but with saved wort instead of priming sugar.

I still do all wheat beers this way and I used to do my lagers this way too.

Usually one ferments to finish, waits a day, then bottle.


Unfortunately I didn't save any wort..... however I certainly could knock up a mini mash on the stove to cover it. I have some munich and pilsner malt on hand. 2.5 liters at 1.048 should do it.


You can do that. It's far more practical and 'cleaner' to save some wort and prime the bottles with that. After all, why pay for sugars when you already made them?

Nick_D wrote:Would I mix this in to the main fermenting vessel and then bottle after fg is reached (probably kick up a lot of settled yeast), or dose the bottles individually ?


It's better to have the old yeast drop out. That quickly happens during that day's pause, esp at those temperatures. I usually transfer into a keg where it is mixed with the speise. From there I push it out with CO2 and use a counter pressure filler to fill the bottles. The bottles aren't filled under counter-pressure though. It's more of a convenience thing.

Transferring to a bucket with a fill tube works as well, but it won't be as oxygen free as when you rack into a purged keg.

Nick_D wrote:Is this method preferable to bottle spunding do you think ? It seems a little more fail safe with giving the beer more time on the yeast to do its thing.


I am sorry but I don't know what bottle spunding is. I never heard the term, and it doesn't make sense either. A spund is a bung, and those aren't found on bottles.
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Re: Bottling a lodo helles

Postby Nick_D » Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:14 pm

Weizenberg wrote:You can do that. It's far more practical and 'cleaner' to save some wort and prime the bottles with that. After all, why pay for sugars when you already made them?


Ok cool, got it. I'll do it with a fresh batch of wort specially cooked up this time around, and save some next time I do a wheat beer.

Thanks !


Weizenberg wrote:I am sorry but I don't know what bottle spunding is. I never heard the term, and it doesn't make sense either. A spund is a bung, and those aren't found on bottles.


I'd consider a bottle cap a bung, practically speaking. They both cap a vessel and allow a build up of pressure. Perhaps "bottle spunding" is not the correct nomenclature. I just mean, like with a lager where one transfers to a keg with enough remaining fermentable sugars to carbonate, simply bottling at the same point, for the same reason, along with protection from oxidation.
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Re: Bottling a lodo helles

Postby Weizenberg » Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:52 am

Ah, got it! Bottle conditioning.

As far as filling bottles whilst the fermentation is still going.... Strictly speaking you can do that. I.e. Transfer before it has reached Vsend (also known as EVG/final apparent attenuation), there are some downsides though

  • you need to bottle at a very precise instant, with Speise you can pick your bottling day (within reason)
  • it's harder to get the carbonation right. Bottles don't have a pressure relief valve.
  • it may end up with a big yest sediment in the bottle since a lot of the yeast hasn't dropped out yet. Ensure your fermentation really is complete + at least 1 day before you bottle. For eg the Schneider brewery lowers the temperature to 14C in this phase.

Unless your fermentation is entirely open, your o2 headspace would have been replaced by the co2 from the fermentation. If you do open fermentation, then you should transfer into a sealed vessel just before fermentation completed.

Happy bottling!
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Re: Bottling a lodo helles

Postby Nick_D » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:41 am

Weizenberg wrote:Ah, got it! Bottle conditioning.

As far as filling bottles whilst the fermentation is still going.... Strictly speaking you can do that. I.e. Transfer before it has reached Vsend (also known as EVG/final apparent attenuation), there are some downsides though

  • you need to bottle at a very precise instant, with Speise you can pick your bottling day (within reason)
  • it's harder to get the carbonation right. Bottles don't have a pressure relief valve.
  • it may end up with a big yest sediment in the bottle since a lot of the yeast hasn't dropped out yet. Ensure your fermentation really is complete + at least 1 day before you bottle. For eg the Schneider brewery lowers the temperature to 14C in this phase.

Unless your fermentation is entirely open, your o2 headspace would have been replaced by the co2 from the fermentation. If you do open fermentation, then you should transfer into a sealed vessel just before fermentation completed.

Happy bottling!


My apologies ! yes, bottle conditioning is what I meant. Sorry for the confusion there.

As an experiment, I will bottle a couple of bottles before Vsend, (about 1.015) as a comparison to the rest of the batch, which I will add Speise to and bottle as you have described. I will be very interested mainly in how they condition and clean up as compared to the Speise dosed bottles. Will also give me an indication of carbonation for future batches, without potentially destroying the entire batch !

Thanks again Nico.

Look forward to posting pics of final product ! (and drinking it more so).

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