Brewtan

Discuss malts, hops, and yeast, not related to a specific recipe

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ajk
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Brewtan

Postby ajk » Mon May 09, 2016 9:44 am

Is anyone familiar with this tannic acid product?

Martin Brungard learned about it at the Craft Brewers Conference from a mutual friend and accomplished homebrewer, Joe Formanek, who works for the company that makes it, Ajinomoto.

In addition to properties that reduce chill haze, it also chelates iron ions that can lead to oxidation.

It has been in use commercially for a while (Wyeast sells it in the commercial section of their site), and Joe says discussions are in the works for offering it at homebrew scale.

I'll post some data sheets Joe sent me.
wobdee
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Re: Brewtan

Postby wobdee » Mon May 09, 2016 9:50 am

I saw that posted over on the AHA but they were pretty tight lipped about what it was until they tested it. Sounds very interesting, I'd like to give it a try.
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ajk
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Re: Brewtan

Postby ajk » Mon May 09, 2016 9:51 am

I put some PDFs here. Let me know if you have trouble accessing them.

https://iu.box.com/s/tv29tjsbgon3i1okktqdq24tbjza4pnh
wobdee
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Re: Brewtan

Postby wobdee » Mon May 09, 2016 10:41 am

Sure would be nice to use this and eliminate the pre boil as well as O2 protection into the keg.
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Ancient Abbey
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Re: Brewtan

Postby Ancient Abbey » Mon May 09, 2016 12:06 pm

I think the reduced oxidation is indirect from binding up iron. Doesn't sounds like it is a scavenger. Still, it's a potentially worthwhile lever to add to the system
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ajk
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Re: Brewtan

Postby ajk » Mon May 09, 2016 12:21 pm

Ancient Abbey wrote:I think the reduced oxidation is indirect from binding up iron. Doesn't sounds like it is a scavenger. Still, it's a potentially worthwhile lever to add to the system

Exactly. The question to me is, will binding up the iron, and thus removing it as a catalyst for oxidation, make staling reactions take so long we no longer care if O₂ is present? And are the free metals chelated by Brewtan the only such catalysts?
Techbrau
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Re: Brewtan

Postby Techbrau » Mon May 09, 2016 12:24 pm

The oxidation reactions in hot wort don't only happen when catalyzed by heavier metals like iron or copper or manganese. Those metals can certainly make it worse but it's not like oxygen just throws up its arms in defeat and stops oxidizing things without iron or copper present. Tannic acid appears to have little to no reducing power on its own. If oxygen is present, it WILL react with everything which is able to react with it. Claiming that brewtan b can "interrupt" all oxidative reactions is akin to claiming to have built an antigravity machine.

I'm curious about its effects on phenol and melanoidin oxidation, which I believe are the primary drivers of the flavor differences we're seeing. Its target application seems to be preventing lipid oxidation in an effort to cut down on trans-2-nonenal. I read a lot of informational material posted by the manufacturer and I didn't see anything boasting about reduced wort color. I could have missed it, but if the tannic acid isn't making the wort brighter then it's not preventing phenol and melanoidin oxidation. Furthermore, the manufacturer states that brewtan b is precipitated out in the mash, hence why you add more post boil. This means it's not giving the wort active protection during the boil the way sulfite does.

I'd like to try it. It could become a useful part of our process. But I don't see how it could possibly be a magic bullet, and to be honest from what I can tell it may not do much at all for us. It's certainly not going to somehow "block" all oxidative reactions from taking place. Its primary purpose seems to simply be binding up haze causing proteins (kind of like Irish moss) and precipitating them out. You know how a very, very old bottle of imported beer will sometimes turn cloudy as it goes bad? That's what this product supposedly fights. Binding up some metals as well appears to be a side effect which can potentially reduce the speed of some oxidative reactions in the mash, but definitely not nearly enough to alleviate the need for preboiling, sulfite, and a mash cap.

Copper will still probably be an issue by the way. If you have too much leeching into the wort in your system it will likely just exhaust the tannic acid faster.
Last edited by Techbrau on Mon May 09, 2016 4:39 pm, edited 8 times in total.
If you always do what you've always done, then you'll always get what you've always gotten.
Kit_B
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Re: Brewtan

Postby Kit_B » Mon May 09, 2016 12:38 pm

I'm just going to hazard a guess that marketing sodium metabisulfite as the go-to antioxident wasn't a lucrative enough option, since everyone already sells it.
You can't patent it or slap a copyright on it.

So...They came up with a different idea, just like many others have.

You still have to mitigate oxygen & be proactive.
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ajk
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Re: Brewtan

Postby ajk » Mon May 09, 2016 1:16 pm

Kit_B wrote:I'm just going to hazard a guess that marketing sodium metabisulfite as the go-to antioxident wasn't a lucrative enough option, since everyone already sells it.
You can't patent it or slap a copyright on it.

So...They came up with a different idea, just like many others have.

You still have to mitigate oxygen & be proactive.

You may be right. As far as I know, this company isn't claiming this product is an SMB alternative. Someone on another forum seems to be, but he's not affiliated with the company.
Kit_B
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Re: Brewtan

Postby Kit_B » Mon May 09, 2016 1:37 pm

There is also the little matter of availability.
No one seems to be mentioning that you can't really buy it anywhere.

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