A few sanity checks

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Techbrau
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Re: A few sanity checks

Postby Techbrau » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:07 pm

mchrispen wrote:I am with you on the longer fermentation schedule, however, I do find that accelerated with 34/70 actually works out pretty well. I do love 2124... but it can certainly be a sulfur bomb. I find the sulfur lessens with repitch, but it could be my imagination. Of course, the sulfur lagers out eventually. It does seem a bit dustier a yeast for me, so min 4 weeks lagering and somewhere in week 5 is just seems to drop completely bright.


Avoiding Brewtan in the boil, racking little to zero kettle trub into the fermenter, and the drop from 9c to 7.5c a day or two before racking to kegs works well for me in terms of getting 2124 to clear quickly. This is the same beer in two different glasses after 3 weeks of lagering at 3c. No keg float, but the dip tube is cut just shy of 1cm from the bottom.

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3E7B5048-D13D-44D2-BA83-EB562F67F985.jpeg
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If you always do what you've always done, then you'll always get what you've always gotten.
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mchrispen
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Re: A few sanity checks

Postby mchrispen » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:02 pm

Techbrau wrote:
mchrispen wrote:I am with you on the longer fermentation schedule, however, I do find that accelerated with 34/70 actually works out pretty well. I do love 2124... but it can certainly be a sulfur bomb. I find the sulfur lessens with repitch, but it could be my imagination. Of course, the sulfur lagers out eventually. It does seem a bit dustier a yeast for me, so min 4 weeks lagering and somewhere in week 5 is just seems to drop completely bright.


Avoiding Brewtan in the boil, racking little to zero kettle trub into the fermenter, and the drop from 9c to 7.5c a day or two before racking to kegs works well for me in terms of getting 2124 to clear quickly. This is the same beer in two different glasses after 3 weeks of lagering at 3c. No keg float, but the dip tube is cut just shy of 1cm from the bottom.

55521078-5687-47B1-A761-F09BE783B71A.jpeg

3E7B5048-D13D-44D2-BA83-EB562F67F985.jpeg

Those are purty!


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lupulus
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Re: A few sanity checks

Postby lupulus » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:13 pm

Thoughts on lagering...
I have set my lagering freezers at 0.5C based on reading many years ago and have not questioned the temperature.
Why 3C? Yeast would certainly be more active, but I would have thought that clearing would take longer. Maybe it is the other way, and they clear faster because they run out of nutrients/ substrate faster at 3C.
What do you all think? I will be doing some reading in the following days.
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Techbrau
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Re: A few sanity checks

Postby Techbrau » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:42 pm

I lager at 3C because I only have two temperature controlled chambers (one for fermentation, one for serving) and I prefer to serve at 3C instead of 0.5C. I did lager some batches colder (around 0C) about a year or so back, and I don't think I noticed much difference. If I had three chambers to play around with, it would be interesting to do some side-by-sides.
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lupulus
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Re: A few sanity checks

Postby lupulus » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:56 pm

Thanks

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Ancient Abbey
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Re: A few sanity checks

Postby Ancient Abbey » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:01 am

Bamforth did an interview a few years back, where he described the differences in flocculation, precipitation and settling rates with temperature. I don't recall it exactly, but the difference between lagering at 1C vs -1C was somewhere around 3:1. In other words, every day at -1C was roughly equal to 3 days at 1C.
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lupulus
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Re: A few sanity checks

Postby lupulus » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:34 am

Happy New Year CT :-)
I remember the interview. I thought at the time that it was with ale yeast as there was no true lagering period. I think this was when he was working at Bass (not a study). The way I recall the process being described is that there was a process to reduce VDK levels (I think it was a small temperature increase for a few days), followed by a 2-day crash at -1C to reduce yeast and particulate matter and then off to packaging. I do not recall whether they filtered. So, he could have been talking about an process to drop particulate matter including ale yeast.
My question was comparing lagering at 3C, which should increase metabolism of the yeast vs 0C which should have a faster particulate matter drop.
I may be wrong but I think it was the diacetyl podcast...
Last edited by lupulus on Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A few sanity checks

Postby Ski » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:51 am

Apart from the lagering time difference, is there any upside or downside to say 3º instead of -1? I lager in a fridge rather than a freezer, and it needs a fan to get down to -1, and of course the compressor runs for longer.
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lupulus
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Re: A few sanity checks

Postby lupulus » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:25 am

I have not been able to find much literature on lagering. I will keep looking. An interesting point (Künze) is that yeast does not metabolize diacetyl at 0C. If this were to be absolute (no reason to doubt it), it seems to me that lagering at 2-3C may be better for the conditioning that takes place during lagering, whereas 0C is probably better for the particle precipitation. So, an interesting protocol would be to lager at 2-3C for 2 weeks and finish off at 0C (which I am sure is not simple for homebrewers with 1-2-3 lagering fridges).
A large German brewery is likely to measure VDKs during lagering so they can adjust.
I will move this question to a separate thread as it seems to be an interesting question...
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