Hefeweizen

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Smellyglove
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Re: Hefeweizen

Postby Smellyglove » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:42 pm

Weizenberg wrote:I hardly ever have a noticeable drop. But then, I may ferment quite a bit differently.

Be careful that the fermentation doesn't get stuck. This often happens when people don't pitch enough yeast into it to begin with (you need more than you think), only to find to their surprise that suddenly, after a few days, the attenuation begins to rise.

I find that a sensible Hefe needs a good 4-5 weeks of conditioning before it peaks.


I've never ever gotten a stuck one. If it "finishes" at 1.012 it's done, 1.014 it's done. Now I'm looking at 1.016 for one of those with 10% cara, I think it might creep down to 1.015 / 14.5 but that's it. Anyhow, one of these three hefes are going to a competition, so I'll be using three different amounts of speise, just to make sure, sort of shooting with a shotgun. I had an ITC which crapped out and when I measured it I was reading almost 1.015, even though I know 14 is where it "should" land, no FFT on this one.
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Ancient Abbey
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Re: Hefeweizen

Postby Ancient Abbey » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:11 am

Smellyglove wrote:Well. FYI, being afraid of proteins settling out after chilling, and dumping it within half an hour into the fermentor is a terrible idea.

I routinely chill down to 11-12C before I transfer, and it sits no more than 30 minutes before going into the fermenter. Removal of all of the hot break and precipitate from the boil is important for reducing those off flavors you noticed, but that material is different from the haze protein that remains behind in the hefe wort.

My hefe from last week was a pale type, more like Weihenstephaner, using 60/30/10 with wheat, pima and carahell. I pitched big and fermented by the rule of 30C. It dropped from 12P to 3P like always, both with WLP300 and WLP351. My observation has been that (generally) North American crystal malts are not as fermentable as the Continental (European) stuff, and the higher the kilning, the lower the fermentability as well.
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Weizenberg
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Re: Hefeweizen

Postby Weizenberg » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:11 pm

Good point. Best Malz have excellent caramalts. Many of them can be used up to 50% of the bill.
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Smellyglove
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Re: Hefeweizen

Postby Smellyglove » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:28 pm

I'm using malts from Castle, except for the Caramunich which is from Weyermann. I feel that the belgians are less roasty/toasty than the Best/Weyermanns.
Smellyglove
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Re: Hefeweizen

Postby Smellyglove » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:29 pm

I did pitch my "normal" amount, which is underpitch comparing to the 0.75 / ml /plato rule. Maybe that's where it got wrong with my 10% caramalt. But I also feel that the belgian caramalt is harder to attenuate than the german.
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Re: Hefeweizen

Postby Smellyglove » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:52 am

I'm having some big issues with stability.

If the beer sits long in the bottle (or even in the fermentor) it gets tarty.

Like it's a different beer comparing to when it's "good". It tarts up, and gets dryer, but no off-flavors as such. Mouthfeel is also different due to the perception of it getting drier.

It sounds like an infection really.. but it does not get sour, or more tart over time, than how it ends up.

If feel it's also linked to the amount of speise. Those with more speise takes longer to tart up. And the process accellerates when the bottle is set cold for an extended time, so the opposite of how an infection would progress.

It somehow seems like the yeast is dropping out, leaving behind a tarty body.

The things I'm trying to look into is:

Does headspace in bottle matter? oxygen?
Maybe I overcarb them?
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ajk
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Hefeweizen

Postby ajk » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:51 pm

Smellyglove wrote:I'm having some big issues with stability.

If the beer sits long in the bottle (or even in the fermentor) it gets tarty.

I’ve always had this problem with Weißbier. Plus, almost every American-made Weißbier I’ve tasted has also been too dry and tart compared to examples from Bavaria and the Black Forest. They’re still plenty drinkable, tasty, and refreshing, but they don’t taste authentic.

My current hypothesis is that I should be bottle conditioning, not serving from a keg. When you serve a bottle of Weißbier, you’re supposed to rouse the yeast, but you can’t easily do that with a keg. This hypothesis would be in keeping with your idea that cold storage causes some yeast (along with the appropriate flavor compounds) to fall out.

Try this: rouse the keg before you serve, and see if the flavor you want comes back.
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lupulus
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Re: Hefeweizen

Postby lupulus » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:27 am

Smellyglove wrote:I'm having some big issues with stability.

If the beer sits long in the bottle (or even in the fermentor) it gets tarty.

Like it's a different beer comparing to when it's "good". It tarts up, and gets dryer, but no off-flavors as such. Mouthfeel is also different due to the perception of it getting drier.

It sounds like an infection really.. but it does not get sour, or more tart over time, than how it ends up.

If feel it's also linked to the amount of speise. Those with more speise takes longer to tart up. And the process accellerates when the bottle is set cold for an extended time, so the opposite of how an infection would progress.

It somehow seems like the yeast is dropping out, leaving behind a tarty body.

The things I'm trying to look into is:

Does headspace in bottle matter? oxygen?
Maybe I overcarb them?


Both keg and bottle-conditioning should work equally well. Bottle conditioning is better in the sense that you drink the whole container at once. There are many tricks for the keg like storing the keg inverted. What you are describing above is oxidation. Back did an article in Brauwelt comparing the lag time of Weissbier to that of Pale lagers and found that Weissbier had no lag time at all (get oxidized right away) when subjected to the lag-time test. Bottom line, drink Weissbier fresh, and bottle it if you are not going to drink the keg fast. The least headspace the better up to a point, as the bottle will explode with a small change in temperature if there is no headspace at all.
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Weizenberg
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Re: Hefeweizen

Postby Weizenberg » Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:03 pm

I never had an issue this markedly different when it came to keg or bottle conditioning. Although I never force carbonated my wheat beers.

One thing to consider is that maybe the recipe needs further adjustment, especially when---after a full conditioning period (which you seem to have had)---the final taste is lacking.

What is worth remembering is that one should really introduce fresh yeast at this stage, and ensure to crash out the old one. At Schneider, wheat beer remains at 1.0 - 0.0 Celsius for a few weeks before it is bottled.

Best
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Smellyglove
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Re: Hefeweizen

Postby Smellyglove » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:27 pm

Weizenberg wrote:I never had an issue this markedly different when it came to keg or bottle conditioning. Although I never force carbonated my wheat beers.

One thing to consider is that maybe the recipe needs further adjustment, especially when---after a full conditioning period (which you seem to have had)---the final taste is lacking.

What is worth remembering is that one should really introduce fresh yeast at this stage, and ensure to crash out the old one. At Schneider, wheat beer remains at 1.0 - 0.0 Celsius for a few weeks before it is bottled.

Best


It was a false alarm. I'm pretty sure I'm infected.
I never had this problem earlier. And I can't imagine I've done anything extreme in my process to promote this. And it's become worse the last few batches. What stumped me was that the beers tasted flawless up to a certain point, then boom. Yeast settles, esters headed a steady way southbound leaving mostly phenols left, body disappears, tarty at first, then last few batches tart/sour already in the fermentor. Actually somewhat tasty though for a beer which this was not intended. Think I'll try kettle sour a Hefe one time.

Can you elaborate on the fresh yeast at which stage? Bottling? I've been krausening the last few batches. For shelf stability I guess new yeast is good and the old one gets dumped. Is this the reason, or is there something else to it?

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